[Tom_Doak]

Everything you say is true apart from the bit about detail and budget: You can get the detail right for the same cost as you can get the detail wrong.

But agreed, it’s much harder when the people who are building the course have never built a course before and you are not there on site to guide them as they build it.

I just don’t think the detail was that important to him.

Ally:


In such circumstances, having the budget TO BRING THE ARCHITECT BACK is where the detail suffers.


Small construction projects tend to happen very slowly and that makes it very difficult for the architect to attend to detail, unless he is a local.  That's one of the reasons I invested heavily in great shapers who can get a lot done quickly -- not just so they can do great work when I'm away, but so they can do everything I want when I'm there!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Everything you say is true apart from the bit about detail and budget: You can get the detail right for the same cost as you can get the detail wrong.

But agreed, it’s much harder when the people who are building the course have never built a course before and you are not there on site to guide them as they build it.

I just don’t think the detail was that important to him.

Ally:


In such circumstances, having the budget TO BRING THE ARCHITECT BACK is where the detail suffers.


Small construction projects tend to happen very slowly and that makes it very difficult for the architect to attend to detail, unless he is a local.  That's one of the reasons I invested heavily in great shapers who can get a lot done quickly -- not just so they can do great work when I'm away, but so they can do everything I want when I'm there!

That was exactly my earlier point, Tom... but equally I don’t believe that Eddie Hackett was that invested in the detail and left very few instructions of that nature.


I’m afraid to say that these courses didn’t have the budget to use any experienced golf course builders (lead or not) or have the architect present. It was a very different situation to even the smallest budget projects of today.


So maybe Rory is right in what he said above. However, I was attempting to say that once the right person is on site, getting detail right takes no longer than getting it wrong.

[Tim_Weiman]

For Tom,


Please recommend three Eddie Hacket courses that you have seen.

Brock,


What would be your three recommendations?

[Sean_A]

Niall

To answer the question, for sure EH was good despite the shortcomings. It would have been intersesting to see what he could have achieved with more money, but I am not sure that was a huge issue. Who was EH going to hire to shape his designs even if it was affordable?

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Again Sean, I’m not sure the detail was foremost in his mind, regardless of who he had to shape them.


We have to remember that when he had less interesting links land, he could end up with some pretty mundane holes: Think of those opening 5’s at Enniscrone or a few on the front nine at Connemara. Even a couple of the holes Fazio replaced at Waterville. A few at Murvagh also.


One quirk he had (largely forgotten) is that he liked to build at least one pond on his links courses. These have since been eradicated at many of his courses (Carne, Waterville), just as well.


My modus operandi has always been that to any links course, I want to bring the absolute respect of the land that Hackett brought... and mix it with a more modern skill in strategy and construction detailing. Once you get that mix right, you have a winner.... A very small budget can be a great thing in the right hands.

[Rory Connaughton]

Ally,


 Maybe you're right re: detail but I have to think he was designing to what they could execute in construction and maintenance.


But then I think about that dell on 13 at Enniscrone. A completely natural feature but the detail is there to get the most out of it.
Same with 5.


I think, also, that he would be untroubled by the notion that these clubs would seek to refine his work. I'm sure he would be happy for their prosperity given such humble beginnings.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Rory,


I’m talking about the small stuff. To give just one of many examples, instead of designing a green that tied in natural land that was high at back and low at front (for instance), he often appeared happy to just lift the front of the green artificially to create a flattish table-top. It really had little to do with what could be constructed or maintained on a budget.


Incidentally, the one course he built with a bigger budget was Waterville. I didn’t know the course (other than photos) from before the Fazio redo so can’t really comment.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I know that there was team of architects, of which Hackett was one, that designed Old Head. How much input did he have?

[Sean_A]

Again Sean, I’m not sure the detail was foremost in his mind, regardless of who he had to shape them.


We have to remember that when he had less interesting links land, he could end up with some pretty mundane holes: Think of those opening 5’s at Enniscrone or a few on the front nine at Connemara. Even a couple of the holes Fazio replaced at Waterville. A few at Murvagh also.


One quirk he had (largely forgotten) is that he liked to build at least one pond on his links courses. These have since been eradicated at many of his courses (Carne, Waterville), just as well.


My modus operandi has always been that to any links course, I want to bring the absolute respect of the land that Hackett brought... and mix it with a more modern skill in strategy and construction detailing. Once you get that mix right, you have a winner.... A very small budget can be a great thing in the right hands.

Ally

That was part of my point. If you don't have money to hire skilled shapers, what is the point of concentrating on that aspect of the design? It could also be that EH liked rudimentary shaping. There are plenty of examples elsewhere that work very well, but aren't the height of artistry.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Again Sean, I’m not sure the detail was foremost in his mind, regardless of who he had to shape them.


We have to remember that when he had less interesting links land, he could end up with some pretty mundane holes: Think of those opening 5’s at Enniscrone or a few on the front nine at Connemara. Even a couple of the holes Fazio replaced at Waterville. A few at Murvagh also.


One quirk he had (largely forgotten) is that he liked to build at least one pond on his links courses. These have since been eradicated at many of his courses (Carne, Waterville), just as well.


My modus operandi has always been that to any links course, I want to bring the absolute respect of the land that Hackett brought... and mix it with a more modern skill in strategy and construction detailing. Once you get that mix right, you have a winner.... A very small budget can be a great thing in the right hands.

Ally

That was part of my point. If you don't have money to hire skilled shapers, what is the point of concentrating on that aspect of the design? It could also be that EH liked rudimentary shaping. There are plenty of examples elsewhere that work very well, but aren't the height of artistry.

Ciao

On your second point, I hadn’t really thought of it that way but if he did, is that a plus?


On the first point, I disagree. If you have a strong vision for how something should be built (yet you don’t have someone on the ground who understands that vision), you try double hard to get those that are on the ground to get as close as they can to what you want.


I suspect once he routed the course, his next priority was to do as little shaping as possible. Budget was king. After that, the detail mattered less to him.

[Tom_Doak]

I know that there was team of architects, of which Hackett was one, that designed Old Head. How much input did he have?

It wasn't really a team; they interviewed several architects, and borrowed pieces of the routing from each.  Ron Kirby was the one who got it built, and he should really get most of the credit.

[Mike Sweeney]

This is a pretty good history of Enniscrone:


https://www.enniscronegolf.com/history/


The summary is:

• Eddie did not have the money to go into The Dunes;
• Eddie drove revenues to a point where Donald Steel could go into The Dunes.

I joined Enniscrone after the Donald Steel renovation, so I can't comment on the "before", but the "after" is wonderful:

[Ally Mcintosh]

One of Eddie’s very best stretches of holes is 5 to 8 at Murvagh / Donegal. Pat Ruddy was since working up there for years but to his great credit, he had the sense to leave those holes alone.


Tom likely knows this given his connection but what sometimes goes forgotten is that the Casey’s originally hired Hackett to add 10 holes to the Valley at Rosapenna. His holes went out the same path as Sandy Hills before returning back with some of the holes on the now Strand nine (front on OTM). The holes didn’t last for long as Pat convinced them to build the Sandy Hills 18 using some of the same land.


From his original work, I think the back nine at Connemara is amongst his best. A really fine stretch of understated gems.


As for Strandhill where I have been working, it’s often reported (wrongly I believe) that he added 9.... As I understand it, all he did was bless Martin Niland’s addition of 16-18. I really should get to the bottom of that sometime.


For those who know, I believe Fazio’s re-routing of 6 to 8 at Waterville was a big improvement? But the best holes (such as 11) are pure Hackett.


None of his inland courses are world beaters. He didn’t have the same quality of land to work with so lack of budget and shaping really shows. But there are some great routings and worthy courses. Ballinrobe is one of the unsung heroes.


As for Carne, a few lesser known titbits:

- Eddie tried to route 36 holes on the land. See my essay in Paul Daley’s Volume 7 for the routing map.

- His routing for the original 18 at Carne excluded the par-3 14th. Instead it played the 10th as a dogleg right followed by a par-3 to the site of the current 10th green. It was Eamon Mangan who suggested that he maximise the small sea frontage that the site included, hence the 14th.

- I gave the club a renovation report for the Hackett 18 back in 2014. I wasn’t suggesting huge changes (I didn’t want to) but I did suggest moving the 7th green to a plateau to the right of the current site. Only after I had suggested this, Eamon told me that Eddie himself had regretted not siting the green there in later years. We may still get this done one day.

[Niall C]

Ally


As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a Hackett course report while on your travels ? I'm assuming he must have given some written report, at least for the new designs, and if so what he said about what to build.


Niall

[jeffwarne]

Tom likely knows this given his connection but what sometimes goes forgotten is that the Casey’s originally hired Hackett to add 10 holes to the Valley at Rosapenna. His holes went out the same path as Sandy Hills before returning back with some of the holes on the now Strand nine (front on OTM). The holes didn’t last for long as Pat convinced them to build the Sandy Hills 18 using some of the same land.

Interesting Ally,
I first went to Rosapenna in '97.checked in at the Pub in town-maybe the Carrigart Inn?
You played most of what is now the front nine(except the NLE 1st and 1/2 of what is now 10 as #2-a straightaway par rather than a dogleg from the clubhouse)
Then you played the Coastguard 9.(or maybe it was 10)


Later, Pat Ruddy built 9 which became the front 9, (which was then tweaked by Doak)


At what point/year did the Hackett 10 come into being?


Obviously the Ruddy Sandy Links took some of that land and ended it-just wondering when it came to be and if it replaced the Coastguard 9 in the routing?


I also played the two courses at St. Patrick's that year which were in very, very rudimentary condition.
Amazingly, the link for their website remains active, even complete with today's date!
http://www.stpatricksgolflinks.com/history.htm

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike,


Great pic of 12. A Hackett hole, correct?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally


As a matter of interest, have you ever seen a Hackett course report while on your travels ? I'm assuming he must have given some written report, at least for the new designs, and if so what he said about what to build.


Niall

I don’t think I ever have, Niall. I will need to ask around.


I’ve seen a couple of sketches.

[Niall C]

Ally


That's interesting. Does he give any detail with sizes etc. ? Assuming his visits were generally one and done and that he wasn't there for the construction, I wonder what instruction he left for those constructing the course. I'm assuming the greens and tees at least were constructed rather than just mown out.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

That's interesting. Does he give any detail with sizes etc. ? Assuming his visits were generally one and done and that he wasn't there for the construction, I wonder what instruction he left for those constructing the course. I'm assuming the greens and tees at least were constructed rather than just mown out.

I may be proven wrong but I think it's very unlikely that Eddie Hackett did many courses that were "one and done".  From everything I've heard about him, he used his force of personality to get some of these projects to happen, which would have taken several meetings with people and lots of cajoling.  Surely he used some of that time to refine his routing and think about the details?

[Ally Mcintosh]

He most certainly made many visits to most of the courses in the development and routing phase. I’m less sure how many return visits he made after construction had started although that probably varied from course to course and perhaps lessened as he got older...


...That said, there’s that lovely chapter in Richard Phinney’s Links to Heaven that talks about him rolling under the barbed wire whilst walking out the third nine at Connemara so he was still sprightly enough. And that other story about him laying sod at St. Patrick’s...


The sketches I saw were pretty basic, Niall.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Eddie Hackett drew up an 18 hole design for Gweedore Golf Club way back in the 1970s. It never came to fruition. Many of the proposed holes were to the south of the present clubhouse, on land that the club did not own. I don't think the club even had commonage rights to the land. Some time in the early 1980s, a club member - who passed away two years ago - showed me the drawing that Hackett made. It was a simple enough drawing of the routing with a yardage table; there was some detail such as mounds and hollows and basic shapes for the greens and fairways. I don't think there would have been any point in adding more detail, since the club had no money; the greens would have been cut on the ground, just as they are now.   

[Mike_Trenham]

Does anyone have any knowledge on the early course managers of Eddie Hackett’s courses?


Seems to me that having a person in charge with the right balance of knowledge and energy could have greatly helped certain courses mature better than others.

Around 2001 I [/size][size=78%]had tea with Dermot Walsh who was the original owner of St Patrick’s and tried to convince him he needed to hire the best course manager he could find even if it required him to give him a % of the ownership.  The courses were unplayable, greens were at best 70% covered and Dermot was only concerned about the rough being too difficult. This was probably good advice but also if reports of the price Dermot got for the property are correct it was incredibly bad advice!  RIP Dermot[/size]

[Ira Fishman]

How much credit should EH get for Dooks? Same question for Killarney Killeen which I thought was a very solid inland course.


Thanks,


Ira

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