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Rob Marshall

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UK/Ireland memberships
« on: January 29, 2021, 07:12:16 PM »
I’m under the impression that clubs in the UK and Ireland have pretty long waiting lists, at least at clubs like Lahinch, RCD, and Portrush. You pay an initiation and monthly dues like in the states. When I was in Ireland I was told the annual dues at RCD was around 1500 pounds.Someone is trying to tell me they have annual memberships like a semi private club here in the states. That wasn’t my understanding when I was over there. Could someone straighten me out here?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2021, 09:04:12 PM »
Rob,


Not entirely sure I understand your question? Every top club has a different entrance criteria: Some have waiting lists (which can be very long), others have elections every few years, others just need you to have large support through an interview process....


Initiation fees also vary dramatically. Many clubs in the UK charge one year’s dues as an entrance sum. Clubs in Ireland tend to be much more than that (although it was the newer clubs that charged the most until the 2008 crash). So some excellent clubs now have no joining fee.


Yearly dues for full membership tend to range from 1,000 to 3,000. Some of the new money top clubs can be more.


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2021, 09:28:38 PM »
Rob -

As Ally mentions, it varies from club to club. Most of the clubs have an annual fee/subscription and do not have monthly dues, although some clubs allow you to spread out the annual fee in monthly payments. Some clubs have joining/initiation fees, some do not.

A lot depends on the club and how close or remote from the big cities it might be. The best known, most highly ranked clubs are most likely to have the highest fees and the longest waiting list to join.


Right now there are a number of clubs with very good courses in the Scottish Highlands that you can join with no initiation fee and for a yearly subscription of less than 500 pounds.

As far as I know, most GB&I clubs allow their overseas members to play an unlimited amount of golf with no green fee charges.

DT

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2021, 10:05:04 PM »
Rob,


Not entirely sure I understand your question? Every top club has a different entrance criteria: Some have waiting lists (which can be very long), others have elections every few years, others just need you to have large support through an interview process....


Initiation fees also vary dramatically. Many clubs in the UK charge one year’s dues as an entrance sum. Clubs in Ireland tend to be much more than that (although it was the newer clubs that charged the most until the 2008 crash). So some excellent clubs now have no joining fee.


Yearly dues for full membership tend to range from 1,000 to 3,000. Some of the new money top clubs can be more.


Poorly worded on my part Ally. Really looking for a comparison of a UK private membership vs a US private membership.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2021, 10:38:24 PM »
Rob -

I should also add that the the vast majority of private clubs in GB&I do permit (and in many cases encourage) visitor play on a daily fee basis. Visitor play is in most cases restricted to certain hours of the day or in some cases to certain days of the week. The revenue from visitor green fees helps keep the annual membership dues at such modest levels compared to golf clubs in the US.

In that sense clubs in GB&I could be considered "semi-private" by American standards.

DT
« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 10:40:44 PM by David_Tepper »

Jeff Schley

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Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2021, 01:11:02 AM »
Rob,
Good day.  I'm not an expert, but a couple years ago I set out to research this as I was thinking of joining a club somewhere like you mentioned. I contacted a few friends who were members somewhere I was interested in as well as emailing the clubs themselves. Most clubs gave me information right away, most of them required to have someone sponsor you and in some cases 2 sponsors. Although most were generous in that if you don't know any present members they could help connect you to some members. It is much more friendly than the private US club model for top clubs with hefty fees and needing to know members from the outset or no chance.
I believe I contacted 15/20 clubs and a couple things stood out.
  • Many of the top clubs were "full" at the moment to overseas visitors. Lahinch, Sunningdale, Royal St. Georges, RCD. Although perhaps if you have a member approach the club secretary it would be more possible.
  • Ballybunion and Waterville both had 15-20k initiations, with very small subs (300-400) and were open back in early 2019.
  • Machrahanish was a steal at I believe something like 500 USD a year and same initiation IIRC, although remote
  • Many had reciprocals at local courses in the area with your overseas membership for very low cost.
  • Some clubs in the remote areas convert you to full membership after a certain period of time from overseas / restricted as slots open up in the full membership roster.
  • The best way is to know at least 1 member and work through them, as there isn't a hurry most likely.
The cost is fairly minimal compared to what the cost is in the USA and almost all clubs in the UK/Ireland are easily accessible provided you can golf on the weekdays.


One thing I weighted was if I get a membership somewhere would that prevent me from taking trips to other venues in the UK and seeing all it had to offer? Most of us on this board either live in the UK or have taken multiple trips to golf all over, collectively we are a great crowd sourced resource for such decisions. I will defer to many others who can chime in with even more sage advice.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Martin

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Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2021, 09:35:24 AM »
If you can’t travel at least once a year or even every two years is there any advantage of an international membership over just paying the freight as you go?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2021, 09:51:29 AM »
Tim -

A lot depends on how long you will be there when you visit and how many rounds you expect to play. Being a member at a club usually allows you access to more desirable tee times during the day, allows you to play in club competitions and allows you to host a number of guests at a "guest of member" green fee that is substantially lower than the green fee visitors pay.

Of course the "x-factor" of being a member and visiting a club over the years is that over time you will get to know the members and the staff and will feel like you are part of something larger than yourself.

DT
« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 09:53:50 AM by David_Tepper »

Charles Lund

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Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2021, 04:40:54 AM »
Speaking from experience with overseas memberships, I became enamored with Ireland on my first trip in 2009 when I did a five week trip that in included the Southwest, travel out to the west and up to Donegal, Northern Ireland, and Dublin.  I returned two years later and did a trip up to Donegal and back to Dublin.  A year later I did a flight to Scotland with ferry to Belfast and a loop to Ballyliffin, Rosapenna, Dublin, and Northern Ireland.  The following year I played at Ballyliffin, Rosapenna, Murvagh, and in Dublin. 


I thought about the issue of joining a club in Ireland for the convenience of having access to a quality links golf experience at a club I enjoyed with welcoming, friendly people.  Ballyliffin offered a lifetime international membership and made a non-local annual membership available.  I joined in 2014 and did two trips a year through the end of 2018, with one exception in 2017 when I went for two weeks to the Southwest of England.  I looked forward to each trip and ended up getting a longer term holiday rental during my stays at Ballyliffin.  Having two courses instead of one factored into my preference and I liked the remoteness of the setting.  The club had arrangements with other clubs in the North and West Coast Links that allowed 50 percent off the normal rate.  Carrying a GUI handicap allowed entry into open competitions. 


During the same period, I had been traveling to Australia and had visited the Mornington Peninsula on multiple occasions, along with playing sandbelt courses.  In early 2014 I decided to look into a membership at The National Golf Club.  Until 2020, I did two trips a year to Australia for a minimum of a three week stay per trip and did routings through Asia beginning in late 2016 on six or seven trips.


Over time, I developed some other travel interests and had things to do here so in 2019 I took a leave from the Ballyliffin Membership.  I had intended to do two Australia trips in 2020 and had a full travel schedule so I decided it was time to give up the Ballyliffin membership.  Ultimately I ended up in the U.S. due to Australia stopping entry for U.S. passport holders in March.  I paid my annual subscription and will return again when travel is permitted.


I'd share that the experiences with golf in Ireland and Australia as a member of golf clubs really added to my enjoyment, due to being more immersed in a cultural sense and making some good friendships.  I liked the location of both clubs and the open spaces made for playing environments I liked. 


I participated in a thread here a few years ago on self directed overseas golf travel.  I developed a good flight tolerance and had ways of dealing with air travel which made that part of the experience manageable.  I've now played about 175 different golf courses outside of North America and getting overseas memberships contributed to being able to access more courses.  I did multi-country and multi-continent trips on many occasions. 


I think there are a lot of areas of England, Scotland, and Ireland that I could enjoy having a golf membership that might serve as a base for more complicated trips that included out and back or loop road travel.  A lot depends on personal preferences and no one can say how the experience of being in another country on multiple occasions might change your ideas about how you want to spend time playing golf.  Over time, I found that I was playing close to 75 percent of my rounds of golf out of the country and often had limited motivation to play while home.


I'd say that joining a club with an affordable buy in fee or one with a manageable subscription rate is an important consideration.  Clubs which have reciprocal play arrangements or reduced rates at other clubs in the country or in other countries adds value to the membership.  Facilities are important.  I had two lockers at Ballyliffin and kept clubs in one and a clothing in another.  In Australia I have a set of clubs that are at the home of a family whose guest house I rented many times.


Different options open up over time.  I figured when I got my overseas memberships that the worst thing that could happen would be that I wouldn't like it and then I would respectfully give up the membership.


Charles Lund
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 04:45:32 AM by Charles Lund »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2021, 08:48:37 AM »
Rob,


Not entirely sure I understand your question? Every top club has a different entrance criteria: Some have waiting lists (which can be very long), others have elections every few years, others just need you to have large support through an interview process....


Initiation fees also vary dramatically. Many clubs in the UK charge one year’s dues as an entrance sum. Clubs in Ireland tend to be much more than that (although it was the newer clubs that charged the most until the 2008 crash). So some excellent clubs now have no joining fee.


Yearly dues for full membership tend to range from 1,000 to 3,000. Some of the new money top clubs can be more.


Poorly worded on my part Ally. Really looking for a comparison of a UK private membership vs a US private membership.


Obviously, there are many tiers to a "US private membership", Rob.


Let me endeavor to be over-simplistic.


US Membership (mid-tier - Typical private course near Hilton Head as an example)


$10,000 - $20,000 initiation fee
2-6 month process
$500-$1,000/mo. dues depending on facility


UK Membership (TOP Tier course - "Top 100 in world")

~$700-$1,000 initiation fee
Process may be up to a year, but could also be shorter. May start as "Probabtionary member" before full membership
$800 - $1,000 per year dues TOTAL.


My best friend just joined Sunningdale and that process was markedly different than most others and required multiple interviews and vetting "on course" with board members, etc.

Then again, as DT points out, there are courses in the UK that will welcome you immediately.

Now, the standard suburban US "country club course"....another animal altogether.Just think longer process and 3-5x the initiation fee.

Sam Andrews

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2021, 10:44:09 AM »



UK Membership (TOP Tier course - "Top 100 in world")

~$700-$1,000 initiation fee
Process may be up to a year, but could also be shorter. May start as "Probabtionary member" before full membership
$800 - $1,000 per year dues TOTAL.



I think you will find that a "top" club in England certainly is 2-4 times annual sub (depending on age) as a joining fee and more like £1.6k-£2.2k a year in subs.
He's the hairy handed gent, who ran amok in Kent.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2021, 01:41:44 PM »
A steal is Silloth on Solway, one of the very top links courses in England and on the fringes of the Lake District, the most beautiful National Park in England.


£550 per year with a £300 initiation. That’s FULL membership.


They even give you £100 back on your bar card and 2 free 4-balls for your mates in your first year! 💪
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 01:44:11 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2021, 02:22:23 PM »
Yes, Ian is very much underplaying the top clubs in GB&I... A lot depends on how remote they are but most will be much closer to what Sam quotes. Initiation Fees in Ireland tend to be higher than the U.K. also.


Regards gaining entry, some waiting lists (for those that use that method) are 20+ years and some courses are virtually impossible to gain entry without pretty serious connections over time.




David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2021, 03:01:11 PM »



UK Membership (TOP Tier course - "Top 100 in world")

~$700-$1,000 initiation fee
Process may be up to a year, but could also be shorter. May start as "Probabtionary member" before full membership
$800 - $1,000 per year dues TOTAL.



I think you will find that a "top" club in England certainly is 2-4 times annual sub (depending on age) as a joining fee and more like £1.6k-£2.2k a year in subs.


The waiting list at Gullane got to an estimated 14 years long in 2019 so they closed it. Joining fees and subs are on the low side.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 03:04:50 PM by David Jones »

Paul Jones

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Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2021, 03:13:50 PM »
I am curious how much all of this will change after the pandemic.  I almost joined a club in England at the beginning of last year, I am glad I did not now.  Maybe I will join in the future, but will not think about if for another year or 2 at least.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2021, 05:00:10 PM »
I’ve decided to retire in March. Five weeks on Friday to be precise, not that I’m counting!
 ;D
I’ve been thinking about which Club/Course might be a good fit to see out my golfing twilight with my ageing knees and arthritic left hip. Not going back to Balbirnie was obvious - way too hilly. Ouch! Leven was, of course, a definite possibility, but the issues with flow of play, some stupid blindness and mad busy tees on medal days are putting me off. Next up in the locality is Ladybank - a charming heathland with bags of fun, a flat walk, a great Club setup and where a few of my mates play.
However, as long as I can remember, it has had a waiting list of about ten years, which would make me 70 before I got in. Anyway, I emailed them today to enquire and found there’s currently NO waiting list and, provided I’m approved by the committee, (no emails from you lot, please!) I can join immediately. Unbelievable.
Joining fee of about 800 quid (payable over three years if you wish), annual sub 540, bar levy, Scottish Golf levy and a new one-off ‘bunker levy’ for the work KimberGlen are doing adds another 150 or so. That’s it.
Bargain!
I’m proceeding with the process and, if they let me in, looking forward to hosting GCA chums when we’re able.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2021, 05:35:32 PM »
I am curious how much all of this will change after the pandemic.  I almost joined a club in England at the beginning of last year, I am glad I did not now.  Maybe I will join in the future, but will not think about if for another year or 2 at least.


Based on the two clubs where I’m a member, demand for membership has increased as a result of the pandemic. Both had no waiting lists a year ago and were offering attractive deals for new members (15 months for the price of 12; deferred joining fees).  Both are now full and waiting lists are back.


How long that will last remains to be seen but from a situation last March where there was a worry about members not paying their fees because of the lockdown, it’s been quite a turnaround. 


Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2021, 06:59:02 PM »
I’ve decided to retire in March. Five weeks on Friday to be precise, not that I’m counting!
 ;D
I’ve been thinking about which Club/Course might be a good fit to see out my golfing twilight with my ageing knees and arthritic left hip. Not going back to Balbirnie was obvious - way too hilly. Ouch! Leven was, of course, a definite possibility, but the issues with flow of play, some stupid blindness and mad busy tees on medal days are putting me off. Next up in the locality is Ladybank - a charming heathland with bags of fun, a flat walk, a great Club setup and where a few of my mates play.
However, as long as I can remember, it has had a waiting list of about ten years, which would make me 70 before I got in. Anyway, I emailed them today to enquire and found there’s currently NO waiting list and, provided I’m approved by the committee, (no emails from you lot, please!) I can join immediately. Unbelievable.
Joining fee of about 800 quid (payable over three years if you wish), annual sub 540, bar levy, Scottish Golf levy and a new one-off ‘bunker levy’ for the work KimberGlen are doing adds another 150 or so. That’s it.
Bargain!
I’m proceeding with the process and, if they let me in, looking forward to hosting GCA chums when we’re able.
F.


Bravo, Marty...! Well done!


Serendipitously played Ladybank in 1990 on my first Scottish trip with two pals from Chicago.
We were staying at the Rusacks after arriving from 4 days in Turnberry.
Played TOC and had the next day "free" on a 10 day trip.


Finished dinner at Rusacks and in walks 30 gents in coat and tie. It was the annual meeting of Scottish and Irish golf secretaries. As it was me, and my pals - Sean McNicholas and Tim McMahon - we were warmly greeted. They inquired about out itinerary and when told we had no plans the next day, we were invited to join them at Ladybank.


Angus Mckinnon rang my room at 630 am and rousted as all and we had a fantastic day on a truly delightful course.


Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK/Ireland memberships
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2021, 10:25:30 PM »
Yes, Ian is very much underplaying the top clubs in GB&I... A lot depends on how remote they are but most will be much closer to what Sam quotes. Initiation Fees in Ireland tend to be higher than the U.K. also.


Regards gaining entry, some waiting lists (for those that use that method) are 20+ years and some courses are virtually impossible to gain entry without pretty serious connections over time.


I believe that at least some of them have a waiting list that's pretty short if you know the right people, but an eternity if you don't. I know that some places have a one proposer and one seconder and that'll get you on the list. Others have a one proposer, one seconder, two other supporters and then letters from other members supporting your membership. Still others have something like this, but if you are a proposer or seconder then you're "cup-tied" and can't propose or second anyone else at the same time. Asking someone to propose or second you at one of those places is a serious ask. Not something you can realistically expect just because you spent a weekend with someone at some point.

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