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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2021, 09:48:48 AM »
Well I am not in the USA so a bit not applicable. If I feel a job status form in I say Golf Course Architect.


I normally have about 4 design jobs on the go at any one time. Most of the profits I have made have been ploughed into a company called Luckland which have a number of properties basically linked with golf courses, owning and running them.


Does anyone really make their money just from design? if you write books which many do is that counting you out.


Some golf architects, probably most will never design a full 18 hole golf course. I am thinking in Europe we probably need one new one every three years to fill demand and probably 30 practicing golf architects at any one times.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 10:11:35 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2021, 09:56:23 AM »
There is no question it's a hard business, and there is a lot of competition.  Jeff has had two letters this year; I've had a half dozen, and it's still January!


I guess the ones that bother me are all of the older guys who think they should succeed like Alister MacKenzie or Pete Dye, with golf architecture as a second career.  Maybe you can do that if you are wealthy enough to fund your own projects; otherwise you must believe you are somehow smarter than everybody else, to make up for the years of experience you don't have.  And that sorely underestimates the intelligence of the many young people who have gotten into this business over the past 25 years.


There are plenty of people already in the business who might run circles around me, if only they got the chance.  There will be a time when I turn to helping them do just that, but I've got a few more ideas I want to get into the ground first.

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2021, 10:40:57 AM »



Would under 50 be too high or too low?


According to estimates there are some 3.5 million unfilled Cybersecurity jobs available... different problem entirely. 

Steve Lang

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2021, 10:58:32 AM »
 8)  Seriously reminded of several Fine Arts majors friends from college who instead of being starving artists, ended up making their vocations picture/art framing and continued painting/print making as their avocations, with their dwindling spare time from life.  Having some hard skills and trade experience to put to work seems more valuable than "ideas"   
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2021, 11:44:21 AM »
There is no question it's a hard business, and there is a lot of competition.  Jeff has had two letters this year; I've had a half dozen, and it's still January!


I guess the ones that bother me are all of the older guys who think they should succeed like Alister MacKenzie or Pete Dye, with golf architecture as a second career.  Maybe you can do that if you are wealthy enough to fund your own projects; otherwise you must believe you are somehow smarter than everybody else, to make up for the years of experience you don't have.  And that sorely underestimates the intelligence of the many young people who have gotten into this business over the past 25 years.


There are plenty of people already in the business who might run circles around me, if only they got the chance.  There will be a time when I turn to helping them do just that, but I've got a few more ideas I want to get into the ground first.


Adrian,


To answer your question specifically, yes, I do! I looked into other things, but after being self employed for 37 years, I deem myself unemployable by others, especially approaching age 66.  I like your plan of investing in other things.  I once owned part of a golf course I had designed and should have kept it.  The secret to wealth building is developing ongoing passive revenue streams, and while it lasted, I did get $30K per year without doing anything. After that, I decided to just save money and invest in OTHER industries to avoid excessive concentration in golf.


As I stated in another post, my income (in the percentile of the US terms) has ranged from top 2% in the go-go 90s to a low of 50th percentile in the 2006-2009 era.  Thanks to my conservative approach to money, I do have sufficient savings for when I (at least semi) retire soon.  As you know, gca is sort of like the pro golf tours....every year the hopefuls all start out at zero dollars.  No guaranteed NFL contracts for us!  Consulting fees, even for the self employed, make you comfortable if you are a success, but not wealthy.  And, the struggle can get easier, but then again, it can get harder, as well.


So, yes, it can vary, but even a mid level gca had a chance at making some decent money at one point.[size=78%] [/size]As Mike says, I'm not sure that is true now, but even 50 seems low, who at least make a middle class living wage.  It's a big world out there.  As you so astutely know, it's not making the money, it's keeping and growing it.  And being a small biz owner is so hard, and people always think it's easy.  Most small business owners in the US really do it for a small bump in a living wage, plus freedom and satisfaction.  And, most small businesses are famous for being "90 days from going broke" in perpetuity.


TD and Adrian,


One other sound bite sticks with me.  When I announced I was quitting my job and moving to Texas to start my own business, one of my father's comments was, "Well, it helps to be too young and stupid to know what might go wrong."  And, it did!  It was no leap of faith to try it, with a wife who earned a living, no kids, etc., etc. etc.  But after you pass the first test of not letting anyone talk you out of it, the second has to be never once believing you can fail.  At the end of my first year in the biz, I had $5000 in my company bank account.  One day, while running prints at the local blueprint shop, I saw they had fireproof drawing file cabinets and printers on sale, which I felt I needed, so I spent almost $4000 of that without a thought.  LOL on me. I still use the phrase, "What could possibly go wrong?" when embarking on some semi crazy idea.



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2021, 12:27:26 PM »

One other sound bite sticks with me.  When I announced I was quitting my job and moving to Texas to start my own business, one of my father's comments was, "Well, it helps to be too young and stupid to know what might go wrong."  And, it did!  It was no leap of faith to try it, with a wife who earned a living, no kids, etc., etc. etc.  But after you pass the first test of not letting anyone talk you out of it, the second has to be never once believing you can fail.


Oh, absolutely.  It's easier to take the plunge when you have nothing to lose.  As I've noted before, the designers who worked in other offices had to give up a guaranteed salary to go on their own; those of us who worked for the Dyes just moved from job to job anyway, so going solo was not so intimidating, it actually gave us a bit more control over what we wanted to do.


I remember very well Mrs. Dye saying to me and John Harbottle one day when we were 24, "Once you are married you are useless to us," because they couldn't ask us to pick up and move at the drop of a hat.  [She could say that, legally, because we were not her employees, but her son's.]  I appreciated the honesty of that.


When I started on my own I didn't even have a girlfriend, so it was much easier to go and live on the project like the Dyes had and build the golf course.  Of course once I had my own business [and the confidence that came with it], I was more attractive to the opposite sex, so that "living on the job" lifestyle only lasted through my first four projects, and the change increased the profits of several different airlines.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2021, 12:42:21 PM »
A not very well known fact is that golf architects, and possibly shapers and other construction personnel actually have pretty high divorce rates, one casualty of "living the dream."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2021, 12:43:54 PM »
A not very well known fact is that golf architects, and possibly shapers and other construction personnel actually have pretty high divorce rates, one casualty of "living the dream."


Yes Jeff, but when you constantly have women throwing themselves at you once they find out you're a golf course designer, that can't exactly help things either!  ;D

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2021, 12:52:14 PM »
One of our ASGCA Presidents told the Executive Director that his theme for his year as President was going to be, "More Groupies for Golf Course Architects."  Funny, but cooler heads prevailed.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2021, 01:53:59 PM »
A not very well known fact is that golf architects, and possibly shapers and other construction personnel actually have pretty high divorce rates, one casualty of "living the dream."


Somehow all but one of my associates stayed married, but I went through a divorce.


At the time, I said to one friend in golf that it seemed like half the people in our business were divorced [including my friends Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw].  He responded, "Yes, but so are half of all other couples, too."  We are not really that special.

Bruce Katona

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2021, 11:12:30 AM »
As a ode to the thought of sustaining marriage; I enjoy reminding my spouse (30 year anniversary a few weeks ago) "If I had $5 million dollars, do you know how handsome and what a catch I'd be to all of your friends and other women"?

Forrest Richardson

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2021, 10:45:46 AM »
Mike — This is an interesting question, and you got much more than just "215" or "120" or _____.

What if we asked the same question back in 1935? Would the ratio of those "who do this full time" vs. "those who do it in ADDITION to something else" be any different? I wonder.

Mark Fine is kind to mention me as helping him. I do recall the day I blurted out that perhaps we should collaborate on the book! Frankly, I was thinking it would be 1/2 the work  ;D
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mark_Fine

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2021, 11:36:10 AM »
Forrest,
Let's admit it, Valerie and Laurie did most of the work  :D 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2021, 01:12:43 PM »
Mike — This is an interesting question, and you got much more than just "215" or "120" or _____.

What if we asked the same question back in 1935? Would the ratio of those "who do this full time" vs. "those who do it in ADDITION to something else" be any different? I wonder.

Mark Fine is kind to mention me as helping him. I do recall the day I blurted out that perhaps we should collaborate on the book! Frankly, I was thinking it would be 1/2 the work  ;D
Forrest,I'm not sure I understand your first sentence.  Are you saying that 215 is the number of people making a living full time in the USA at golf design by itself?  I might still disagree with that.  Let me define..I'm not talking about good year then. bad year..I'm saying over a 10 year stretch making a better than decent income comparable to what they could make in development work or similar.  And I am talking design only not construction on the side...

But I do think your second paragraph is interesting.  Not being a historian on the subject, I have always assumed many in the business at that time had money or cam from families with money.  Main reason being not many people played golf here unless they were from families with money.  So I'm thinking it began as a hobby for many and they were called on by other clubs by word of mouth.  I'm not even sure Ross could have made a full time living from it without having a construction arm.   I think much less made a living full time back then.  JMO


"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2021, 02:27:26 PM »
Mike,
Do you think it is an advantage or disadvantage if one does this full time or has to secure GCA work to put food on the table? 

Mike_Young

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2021, 03:04:15 PM »
Mike,
Do you think it is an advantage or disadvantage if one does this full time or has to secure GCA work to put food on the table?
Never thought about it.  Always figured amount of experience was the advantage one had.  It's one of those things that's like a lot of stuff.  It's worth what a client pays for it.  Too many "experts" running around out there playing sometimes and relying 100 percent on what a contractor tells them. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA? New
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2021, 04:59:03 PM »
Mike,
I don't know if the answer to that question is an easy one but I know it surely varies.  I still remember early on when Tiger Woods signed with Nike for all that money.  He said it completely took the financial pressure/concern off the table for him and allowed him to just concentrate on playing golf. 


There is some truth to that with GCA.  For me personally, I don't have to secure a certain number of projects every year to keep the family fed and to pay the bills.  I am lucky in that regard.  I don't have to maximize the amount of money I make on each job and I can walk away from projects that I don't think will be any fun or I don't think I am the best person for the work.  I remember one specifically in NJ that would have been a very lucrative one for me but I really didn't like what they wanted to do with the golf course and couldn't convince them otherwise so I just walked away.  I have often said to courses with some kind of pedigree that I thought was worth maintaining or restoring, if you are interested in your course's heritage and maybe bringing some of that back, I can help you.  If not, you are probably better off hiring Tom Fazio or Rees Jones and letting them redesign your golf course.  I don't tell clients what they want to hear because I don't have to and don't work that way.  Kind of like Tiger just focusing on the golf, it is not about the money.   


As far as some relying on the contractors; you know as well as anyone, most of us are only as good as the team doing the actual construction (unless you can get on the bulldozer or track hoe and do the shaping yourself).  I have some favorite contractors/shapers that I like to work with (I know we all do) but at times I am forced to use the firm selected by the client (I usually give a list of preferred contractors but the final decision is not always mine).  Some get things right the first time and some need much more attention and constant changing and tweaking.  I design mostly in the field and don't rely too often on detailed drawings though we do prepare them when the client requests.  I learned (very early on) most shapers basically use drawings to sit on and little more.  These guys are artists and once you get on the same page with them with what you want, they don't want someone constantly looking over their shoulder and/or forcing them to copy a drawing exact.  I was just at a construction project this morning (before a big snowfall shuts down the work) and was talking to the contractor about some changes to be made on several of the holes.  We discussed what I wanted and I am very confident he will get it right and if not we will tweak it till he does. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 05:33:34 PM by Mark_Fine »

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