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Mike_Young

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How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« on: January 26, 2021, 11:22:46 PM »

After watching and making one or two comments on the "who uses templates" thread I decided to just make a few comments here that may be considered cynical but I consider them basically factual when I say the average golf architect cannot make a living at just golf design.
-First, some of us on here were fortunate enough to be born at the right time to design or design/ build 20-30 or more 18 hole golf courses. That is not a slap at anyone born at times that did not allow such.  there may not be another time like this last surge of the 80's and 90's.  Even now I consider myself a golf course designer/builder and not "architect"

-Even during that time there were many "architects" in the business who were in the larger offices and were not designing their own courses.  And since leaving have not been afforded the opportunity due to lack of demand.
-For the average architect during that period he needed to also be doing some type of design/build if he was trying to operate a profitable business and Make a living that could comfortably support a family and a retirement.
-During this golf "boom" most did not know where their next project would come from more than two years down the road.  So it would be safe to say there was no security in "golf architecture" for most practitioners.
-when the slow down came the most insecure positions out there were to be working for the big names.  Most employees of the signatures had a false sense of security and had been working in an environment where jobs came in the door and they didn't know what it was like to have to go and fight for a job with no "golf professional marketing name" behind you.  Many went overseas for a while and maybe still in order to have a decent income in the business.
-from late 90's until today residential golf, which had carried the business, went away and unique destination golf course were what was being built and there were not enough to support a profession.
-for those of us that had been doing it thru the 80's and 90's we had to figure how to survive if we wanted to continue to design when there was work. Or either we had to spend what we made during the better times.   For myself I decided to try to operate courses for banks that had repossessed them and then decided to buy one and become a vertical, holistic golf operation that could design/build/operate.  I'm convinced that most of the revered ODG guys had other sources of income and rarely depended on golf design as their main income.
- and here we are today....there may be 10 guys who can make a full time living at golf design by itself over a period of 10 years forward in this country.  We have a society for architects and my bet is that over 75% of the members are not the main breadwinners in the family. Some aren't even in that business. There might be 5 new courses being built in the USA...not sure..but bet I'm close.
 -so where is it tomorrow or in 5 years?  The bigger renovations etc will all be done and clubs will have figured how they fell for the smoke and mirrors in many cases.  The "yes man" guys who would destroy a club in order to get a job and do whatever a board wanted will be found out. 

-The barrier to entry for golf design will still be a business card and purchase of Anatomy of a Golf Course ( you can learn from this book) and a few others to learn the catch phrases.  However, the day of just being able to draw a design will not cut it when you have guys who have spent years working and actually placing the product in the field with a passion.  Those on here that think they have a passion based on reading a few books often don't comprehend the passion it takes to live that golf course being put in the ground and actually opening.  The efficiency and economy of scale that a talented young design builder brings will rule the future.Which brings me to this realization. 

-Golf architecture is not a functioning profession in fact it is dysfunctional.  Only a very, very few can make an entire career out of it; eliminate the tour players and it is even fewer.  MOST OTHERS ARE PLAYING GOLF ARCHITECT.  Somehow along the way it gained a glamour.  And it's not glamorous.  Sort of like playing "army" but not using real bullets.

I live in Athens, Ga home of the University of Ga.  The School of Environmental Design always has one or two guys coming out wanting to enter the golf design field.  They don't understand why I discourage it.  My son has worked with me for over 20 years and today I would never put him in the golf business. 

Recently, I was talking to a younger architect who has a good track record and has done some very good projects.  He was on his way to an interview near here and he had flown over 1800 miles.  There were 12 others interviewing at the project.  I asked him how he did it.  Imagine preparing presentation after presentation for clubs interviewing over 10 architects a few times a year.    And in the end it will usually come down to someone who had it wrapped up from the start.  I admire that desire to go after such but it keeps your stomach stirred.  The same amount of effort selling software or real estate or legal work is going to produce much more income.  That's a tough , tough living.

The only jobs in golf I know that might be a little goofier are the  senior mini tours in Florida.  That job is the 2 handicapper guy who sells his company, tells his wife they are moving to Florida( which she gladly accepts) joins a club, starts playing on of the senior mini tours $750 bucks a week to enter the tourney  while playing for your own money and never making a dime but gets a good deduction. 
There will be exceptions... ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 07:26:06 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff Schley

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2021, 12:05:48 AM »
Supply and demand. There is not alot of demand for GCA right now due to the lack of work as you pointed out. Way more supply than demand and as a result you have a prolonged equilibrium cycle happening. I equate it to actors as I lived in so cal for 10 years. I knew probably 5-6 "actors", although none of them made a living as one. 3 worked construction, which was a good living actually and occasionally got a TV commercial or two a year. 2 worked in restaurants for tips and survived, one lived at home and it seemed went on auditions several times a week and took acting classes. His job was trying to get a job for at least the last 3 years I knew him before I moved. If they want to call themselves actors for any reason, who cares right? None of my business and it doesn't affect my view of them. If they are arrogant and self centered and doing it for ego reasons which causes them to be jerks I wouldn't even call them a friend to begin with. You want to be an actor or call yourself an actor fine.


There is nothing wrong with people pursuing their passion, many people's passion involves volunteering/charity work and are able to do that due to retirement, spouse supports the family or other means. They can work full time doing that work as a volunteer and not get paid yet they survive and thrive for they are pursuing their passion. Financially thriving or supporting themselves is another story. I don't see any negative connotation with a "struggling" GCA calling themselves a GCA. They are pursuing their passion faithfully, if one chooses not to respect them for they can't make a financial living out of it, that is up to them. I would ask however, who cares how they see themselves? As long as they aren't lying about their resumes or activities let people be who they want to be and treat them based on their behaviors towards others, not their dreams.

I also know a recently retired friend who is a "college fb coach". Is he really?  He volunteers at the local division III college as a quality control coach, which is short for entry level responsibilities. However he gets all the hats, shirts, jackets with the college's name and football staff on it. Thus, he seems himself (quite proudly) as a college fb coach. Would I claim to be a college fb coach if I had his job?  No, I would probably say I volunteer to help the XYZ football program. Why feel the need to stroke my ego to try and convince others what I'm doing is larger than what it is? I wouldn't, but some do and as long as they aren't lying in what they do fine go ahead.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2021, 12:13:04 AM »
Supply and demand. There is not alot of demand for GCA right now due to the lack of work as you pointed out. Way more supply than demand and as a result you have a prolonged equilibrium cycle happening. I equate it to actors as I lived in so cal for 10 years. I knew probably 5-6 "actors", although none of them made a living as one. 3 worked construction, which was a good living actually and occasionally got a TV commercial or two a year. 2 worked in restaurants for tips and survived, one lived at home and it seemed went on auditions several times a week and took acting classes. His job was trying to get a job for at least the last 3 years I knew him before I moved. If they want to call themselves actors for any reason, who cares right? None of my business and it doesn't affect my view of them. If they are arrogant and self centered and doing it for ego reasons which causes them to be jerks I wouldn't even call them a friend to begin with. You want to be an actor or call yourself an actor fine.


There is nothing wrong with people pursuing their passion, many people's passion involves volunteering/charity work and are able to do that due to retirement, spouse supports the family or other means. They can work full time doing that work as a volunteer and not get paid yet they survive and thrive for they are pursuing their passion. Financially thriving or supporting themselves is another story. I don't see any negative connotation with a "struggling" GCA calling themselves a GCA. They are pursuing their passion faithfully, if one chooses not to respect them for they can't make a financial living out of it, that is up to them. I would ask however, who cares how they see themselves? As long as they aren't lying about their resumes or activities let people be who they want to be and treat them based on their behaviors towards others, not their dreams.

I also know a recently retired friend who is a "college fb coach". Is he really?  He volunteers at the local division III college as a quality control coach, which is short for entry level responsibilities. However he gets all the hats, shirts, jackets with the college's name and football staff on it. Thus, he seems himself (quite proudly) as a college fb coach. Would I claim to be a college fb coach if I had his job?  No, I would probably say I volunteer to help the XYZ football program. Why feel the need to stroke my ego to try and convince others what I'm doing is larger than what it is? I wouldn't, but some do and as long as they aren't lying in what they do fine go ahead.
Jeff,I don't disagree with what you say above.  I don't see where I said there was an issue with what someone called themselves.  I don't.  I'm just saying it is not a viable business model for most by itself....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ira Fishman

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2021, 08:55:50 AM »
Mike,


I hear you regarding the advice you give to young people. And it is difficult to throw cold water on someone’s dreams. I stumbled into a career in sports toward the end of my professional life. Now I talk to several young people each year with a tremendous passion for sports, and I too tend to give discouraging advice. The ratio of young people who want a career in sports to the number of available jobs is not as dramatic as golf course architecture, but good jobs are very hard to come by. It always hurts a bit when I speak with young people even though I know I am trying to be helpful.


Ira

Tom_Doak

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2021, 09:39:17 AM »
Just before Christmas, I got an email from a nice woman who had bought her husband my new book, and wondered if I would agree to speak to her husband [who was harboring dreams of getting into golf course design] as a Christmas gift.  I agreed, just so I could tell him not to do that to his thoughtful wife and family!  I explained to him how many young people I had trained who were already 5-10 years ahead of him on the career path with more than 1,000 nights away from home, but still wondering if they will ever get to design a course on their own someday.


Yes, there was a blip there from 1995-2008 when we were all on the gravy train, and the business was so popular that there was even a web site devoted to it.  But I am old enough to remember that I worked on developers' payrolls rather than Pete Dye's, because there were a couple of years in the 60's and 70's where Pete lost money by having guys on payroll and not enough work coming in, and eventually he decided he didn't want to take that risk.  And that was PETE DYE, in the prime of his career.




In spite of that, I have had a payroll since 1989, and being willing to take that risk was key to my success in the business, because most of the talented people who have worked for me would not have been able to hang in there without that commitment.  They are the reason I live in a modest house instead of a mansion, but they are also the reason that other people think I must live in a mansion, so it's been a fair trade.




Mike, my only quibble with your rant is that you imply guys could make a better living doing something else.  When I look around I see people struggling everywhere, and a lot of the jobs that pay well are things my dad would have seen as taking advantage of others.  But maybe it was always that way and I was just too busy to notice?

Bruce Katona

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2021, 10:46:49 AM »
As mentioned here several times; like Tom Doak and other contributors here on GCA; I went to school - plug here for Rutgers - The State University of NJ - and have my degree in Landscape Architecture. What no one else here would know is that my dad was also a landscape Architect; holding a Masters Degree from UMASS Amherst.  While my golf interest was always routing and design; Dad's love was plants and turf grass.


When Dad was at UMASS one of his instructors was Geoff Cornish. One of the projects the UMASS students studied in studio was  - at the time poor - the drainage plaguing Yale Bowl in New Haven; the turf was always soggy. Dad's design solution; and the one Geoff endorsed; was to blast the underlying rock to open fissures to drain the subbase.


At the conclusion of the class Dad asked Geoff about an internship/employment as he was older than most students; attending grad school on the GI Bill after serving in the Army at the end of WWII - Geoff said "No". Dad asked Geoff why he was teaching since he had his own practice designing golf courses and Geoff replied "The golf course design business doesn't pay well enough and I enjoy eating.".


Dad always advised me not to go into landscape architecture since "you can't really make any money in that lousy profession". Dad was a civil servant for his working career; stable income, pension, little travel but did he kill it professionally or economically - nope.


Fast forward to me; I don't really practice LA - real estate development; the golf business and building affordable housing take most of my time.  Of the peers that graduated with me from Rutgers; the folks doing best economically are the Director of Development for a regional gas/convenience chain; a new business development person for an architectural frim who does lots of work for a major national retailer; and one who is a principal at a multi-disciplinary (arch/eng/environmental) consulting firm.  The peer from my class killing it economically is the guy who decided a few years after graduation to head out to the East End of Long Island to open his own design build shop Landscape Details.  He's got lots of folks working for him now and is doing great work for the folks on the South Fork.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2021, 10:56:47 AM »
Just for fun I accessed the website of a firm that has done a great deal of work in my area over the last fifty plus years. I do not want to tell you the name of the firm, so please don't guess. They have a good product and reputation, yet I could only find five projects they have worked on since 2008, and all of those were minor renovations. I feel bad for them. They worked diligently but aren't rewarded for their good work.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2021, 11:11:55 AM »
I'll break my reply into two only semi-related posts.


I have had two younger than I people call and ask about getting into the biz since Christmas.  The dream lives!


I met one, and he now apparently has a job with a young design-build firm out in the field.  The other was married with a child and wanted to join a plans based firm.  While being careful to highlight the low percentage of folks who actually succeed, I have trouble throwing cold water on any dream that was so similar to mine 40 years ago.  I always joke that your first test as an aspiring gca is to be able to ignore all those naysayers who tell you that you can't, or in the case of my LA professors, shouldn't (they are often of the opinion that LA and design, in general, can save (or at least improve) the world.


My entrance into gca was in 1977, and conditions then were at least as bleak as they are now.  On about the third day at Killian and Nugent, one task was to go to the bank and withdraw some of their savings to make payroll.  So, I knew what I was getting into.  I wondered out loud if I could finish my career as a gca, and Nugent laughed.  As bad as it was, it was no worse than World Wars, Irish potato famines, etc.  I use his tag line often - "It's survived over 500 years, I think it will go at least 50 more."


That said, Geoff Cornish, of the same gca generation as Killian and Nugent (or half generation before) wasn't wrong.  Most landscape architects make a less than average living.  The only hope is to own your own firm (and run it wisely) or, go into construction.  Both Brent Wadsworth and Bill Kubly started out wanting to be gca's, but soon proved that out.  Unlike engineers, who steadfastly maintain their 7% fees (in boom times, up to 9-10% from what I see) all forms of landscape architecture have too often resorted to fee cutting to get just one job....we'll raise them next time when it's easier.  But, easier rarely comes.  And the only firm I can think of that did pretty well while charging low fees was Ault-Clark, who truly made it up on volume.


And yes, I think most of us have benefitted from having working and especially, professional wives, as many families do, to hopefully even out the bad times.  And, just to be sure, I bet most of us wisely had a standard of living of about 66-75% of our actual income in those heydays.


One of those who told me I was nuts to not go into the corporate world was my Dad, a career Campbell Soup salesman (and later manager)  He couldn't envision giving up the perceived security of working for a large corporation to start a small business in an oddball field.  But, now that I'm in the 9th inning of my career, looking back, I couldn't or wouldn't have done it his way.  I realize I was lucky to be born at the right time, and perhaps if I had worked for some tech giant, I could have made more money (if I could survive).  And, that corporate security obviously reduced greatly since about the recession of 1980, and I always felt better living by my own wit and surviving some tough times.  Overall, it's been a pretty nice run!


One last thing, but the US and World are pretty big places.  While not glamorous doing new forward tee planning, etc., there is probably more work out there than some suspect.  Even in the good times, when Toro sent out 300 info packets to gca's (admitting they were a bit scared to offend even some on the margins of the biz, so it was a bit high) I recall running some math, and most gca's back then never even had a new course, but somehow at least contributed to their families income.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 11:17:36 AM »
Mike,
As you well know, this is a very tough (but rewarding business).  As you stated, very few are fortunate enough to be in a position to do this full time.  For me it all depends on workload but I have been lucky throughout to almost always have enough projects to keep me engaged.  This business is primarily a passion (along the lines of what Jeff was talking about).  Like many, I can supplement it as needed elsewhere. But that is ok with me and in some ways gives me an advantage.  I don’t seek out jobs just for the work and I don’t take jobs where I don’t think I am the best person for the project.  I have managed to keep quite busy the last 18+ years doing something I love and I think I am making a positive difference in the courses/clubs I have worked with. 


I’ve had a lot of support along the way and I always try to do the same with others who I work with or who ask for my advice or help.  This business is far too tough and competitive to go it on your own.  I haven’t had the joy of opening my own brand new 18 hole course, but I have done complete renovations and they feel pretty good too.  I would not have gotten into GCA almost 20 years ago were it not for people like Forrest Richardson and Gil Hanse and even guys like Jim Engh.  Actually the list of names is long and I feel bad leaving anyone out.  Gil was one of the first I talked to (way back before he was famous).  He was extremely encouraging and offered to help me in anyway he could.  That support has continued until this day and he remains on top of my reference list. 


Forrest Richardson, however, has been my biggest supporter.  I met Forrest back in ~2003 on this site.  I told him what I was planning to do and also that I wanted to write a book to try to give me some credibility since I was trying to enter this business in an unconventional way.  He suggested we write one together (he hardly knew me) but Forrest is that kind of guy.  He likes helping people and he has been a great friend and a true mentor ever since.  We ended up co-authoring the book Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards and have been working together on design projects ever since.  We both have very different strengths and backgrounds and think about many things in GCA differently but that is what makes us a good team.  We both look at problems/challenges differently and that mix of ideas can often lead to great things.  I have also worked with many other architects along the way.  Guys like Scott Witter, Greg Martin, Ron Forse, and Robert McNeil to name a few.  I have learned a lot from all of them.  I have also partnered on master plan projects with guys like Brad Klein as well.  Brad is a brilliant guy and has a great eye for GCA. 


People will always try to knock you down and say you can’t or shouldn’t be doing something (nature of any competitive business) but sometimes you just have to go for it.  I saw what I thought was a niche in GCA 20 years ago (something that I thought was broken) and where I thought I might be able to fix it or at least help make something better.  I was lucky to be in a position to pursue a passion.  Most never take that chance but it has worked out pretty well for me and I sure don’t regret the decision. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 11:38:34 AM »

Part 2, specifically addressing some of Mike's points.....


And since leaving have not been afforded the opportunity due to lack of demand.

Many of the lower paid associates have taken up contract drafting, along with the occasion job on their own, and make a living.  It helps most of us who stayed in the biz to move back home, and only pay for drafting when we needed it, rather than $1000 or whatever per week, every stinking week, every stinking year, whether we needed the help or not.  That, zoom and drop box have made offices totally unnecessary.

For the average architect during that period he needed to also be doing some type of design/build if he was trying to operate a profitable business

I know many where that is not true. And, I know more than a few who either broke even or went BK doing it.  For the breakeven, the architects supplied shapers, etc. hourly (the worst way to make money) to support their design dreams.  For the BK, it was just a matter of entering a business they weren't qualified for and knew nothing about.

for those of us that had been doing it thru the 80's and 90's we had to figure how to survive if we wanted to continue to design when there was work. Or either we had to spend what we made during the better times.   For myself I decided to try to operate courses for banks that had repossessed them and then decided to buy one and become a vertical, holistic golf operation that could design/build/operate.  I'm convinced that most of the revered ODG guys had other sources of income and rarely depended on golf design as their main income.

Mostly true, and you were very smart.  Many of us took on side businesses, probably the most well known being Jerry Lemons of Better Billy Bunker.  I did not, preferring the cost cutting mode above, and fortunately able to live on a reduced income from my highs.  (In my best year, my income was top 2% in the country.....which is still a very far cry from top 1%, LOL, but not bad and my lowest year still put me in the top 50%)

-The barrier to entry for golf design will still be a business card and purchase of Anatomy of a Golf Course ( you can learn from this book) and a few others to learn the catch phrases.  However, the day of just being able to draw a design will not cut it when you have guys who have spent years working and actually placing the product in the field with a passion.  Those on here that think they have a passion based on reading a few books often don't comprehend the passion it takes to live that golf course being put in the ground and actually opening.  The efficiency and economy of scale that a talented young design builder brings will rule the future.Which brings me to this realization.



I'll disagree here.  Agree on it being an easy biz to enter, perhaps too easy.  But then, I don't begrudge them, as I was that eager youth once.  And I know what the elder practitioners were saying about me! (and you!)  That said, with increasing environmental regulations and cost consciousness there are many projects that require detailed plans, and that should increase with the Dems in power (not political, but it always does)  And, it often helps to have a golf course architect who really understands comp storage, regulations, etc., without having to rely on an engineering firm to really do the work at their full fee.  As it happens, I have just signed a project where I will be doing the grading for both golf and development, which really makes sense, since they work together so closely.  It really came in handy when I was working in China, and for two projects, the engineers had come up with a billion Cubic Meters of earthmoving to make it work, and my plans cut that in half (great, since by Chinese law in some areas, earthmoving is limited to 600,000 CM)  In my experience, designers don't get paid for the fru fru ideas, they get paid for making it possible to construct.  It formerly took a rare client and site to afford the Pete Dye method.  At this moment, your vision has put on a great marketing push to make is seem as if this is the only thing or method that makes sense, but its not always true, and I still think the pendulum will swing back somewhat.  lastly, IMHO, if design build becomes the future mode, I think it will be led by contractors.  If construction is the main thing, it should be led by those who understand big picture construction, not designers.  All forms of design will survive, IMHO.

Lastly, as to your idea that most are just playing architect.  That is an interesting concept.  Given the move to smaller projects and spread out work, maybe your definition of what is a gca ought to change the other direction.  Does someone who only does a few renovation projects, and maybe bunker only projects at that, but does them with passion, not qualify as a gca in this era?  The days of needing 5 new courses to get into ASGCA is long gone, and we have always welcomed low volume members who practice with passion, and will continue to do so.  I offer that only as perspective, and not to stir up the ASGCA/anti ASGCA arguments you and I often get into.  Just really food for thought.

Cheers, and back to work for me!

PS - Sorry for the formatting, not enough time to exorcise the demons in this site, LOL>

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 11:43:50 AM »
Mark,


Like you, I have always found those in the profession to be very helpful, and maybe only a bit less helpful when work is scarce, LOL.  I try to pay it forward as a result.  Besides those who are trying to enter, I have donated some expertise to many younger practitioners just in the biz, by reviewing drainage plans, answering questions, etc.  I also wrote some of those standard ASGCA contracts (up for an update when I have the time) and in the "no good deed goes unpunished" category, have gotten over a dozen calls from architects and/or their lawyers asking me what a certain clause or another was trying to convey.


On the more famous level, guys like Bill, Tom and Pete Dye have done it even more for their associates.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 11:46:54 AM »

Mike, my only quibble with your rant is that you imply guys could make a better living doing something else.  When I look around I see people struggling everywhere, and a lot of the jobs that pay well are things my dad would have seen as taking advantage of others.  But maybe it was always that way and I was just too busy to notice?
Tom,I recall you and I both began about the same time.  My payroll began about the same time and in order to keep it I have had to improvise outside of just pure design.  I have a set up where a guy can come in in the morning and mow greens, open the proshop and go upstairs to a drafting table for most of the day...that's pretty vertical.  When you and I entered I think we both had a design/build/craft philosophy that was not really accepted readily by the Industry.  You developed a national reputation.  I didn't.  But it was all sort of outlaw. ( FBI wanted you and only the sheriff wanted me)  Today guys like Green, Frantz and your guys are becoming the cool way to go.  Things have changed.  I was asked the other day to recommend some younger guys who could work on a project for the next few years and I thought "damn, am I that old?"
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

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Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 12:05:51 PM »
lastly, IMHO, if design build becomes the future mode, I think it will be led by contractors.  If construction is the main thing, it should be led by those who understand big picture construction, not designers.  All forms of design will survive, IMHO.
No doubt in my mind you are correct here.  Of course they will have a young guy working with them but it only makes sense.

Lastly, as to your idea that most are just playing architect.  That is an interesting concept.  Given the move to smaller projects and spread out work, maybe your definition of what is a gca ought to change the other direction.  Does someone who only does a few renovation projects, and maybe bunker only projects at that, but does them with passion, not qualify as a gca in this era?  The days of needing 5 new courses to get into ASGCA is long gone, and we have always welcomed low volume members who practice with passion, and will continue to do so.  I offer that only as perspective, and not to stir up the ASGCA/anti ASGCA arguments you and I often get into.  Just really food for thought.
Let me make it clear.  I don't care what someone calls their job.  But I prefer not to have to wade thru BS to find out.  For me personally, to make the money I want to make I have to improvise other ways to generate income and luckily it's within the golf business.  I think it has always been that way and that is what my Topic question was.Oh..ASGCA..I'm not into having to do a debate either.  I feel like anyone would feel who was qualified and told they were not.  But gonna say one thing.  When you say above that the 5 course minimum has been lowered and now "passion" is a big qualification.  then I assume experience has given in a little to passion.  And so like many societies over time, I would ask have we reached a point where perhaps the members are there for ASGCA more than ASGCA being there for members.  You know sometimes it's just survival.
Cheers to you too Jeff..rainy day here....

Cheers, and back to work for me!

PS - Sorry for the formatting, not enough time to exorcise the demons in this site, LOL>
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 12:20:00 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 12:08:44 PM »

 It really came in handy when I was working in China, and for two projects, the engineers had come up with a billion Cubic Meters of earthmoving to make it work, and my plans cut that in half (great, since by Chinese law in some areas, earthmoving is limited to 600,000 CM)  In my experience, designers don't get paid for the fru fru ideas, they get paid for making it possible to construct.  It formerly took a rare client and site to afford the Pete Dye method.  At this moment, your vision has put on a great marketing push to make is seem as if this is the only thing or method that makes sense, but its not always true, and I still think the pendulum will swing back somewhat.


I know there were some crazy projects in China, but I am hoping that "a billion Cubic Meters" was just a typo.   :D


I also think that you do a disservice to Pete Dye by repeating the trope that his method was somehow inefficient.  Pete was the most practical designer I've met, and he built quite a few projects that few others could have even got started.  [He did have some very wealthy clients who let him spend a lot, but that was certainly not true of places like Crooked Stick or the TPC at Sawgrass.]  I never met a client of his who thought he'd spent too much, or wanted to work with someone else after their experience with him.  A lot of his reputation was what you dismiss with mine as "marketing" plus a bunch of plaid-jacket guys misrepresenting what Pete did. Honestly I don't think that many of you even understood how he worked.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 12:23:19 PM »

Tom,I recall you and I both began about the same time.  My payroll began about the same time and in order to keep it I have had to improvise outside of just pure design.  I have a set up where a guy can come in in the morning and mow greens, open the proshop and go upstairs to a drafting table for most of the day...that's pretty vertical.  When you and I entered I think we both had a design/build/craft philosophy that was not really accepted readily by the Industry.  You developed a national reputation.  I didn't.  But it was all sort of outlaw. ( FBI wanted you and only the sheriff wanted me)  Today guys like Green, Frantz and your guys are becoming the cool way to go.  Things have changed.  I was asked the other day to recommend some younger guys who could work on a project for the next few years and I thought "damn, am I that old?"




Mike:


I have seen your "vertical" model in operation and admire it.  Too many of my associates and interns would have thought that was beneath them, somehow, which is too bad because some of them might still be in the business today if they had caught on. 


There are a lot of guys who are caught up in being seen as "professionals" and they let it get in the way of the work.  Even some of my own associates [past and present] had a complex about being seen as "construction guys" no matter how many times I told them that made them MORE valuable, not less.  But I understand it, because I tell most people that "I build golf courses," and if they keep asking questions and I admit to being a designer, they suddenly seem much more impressed.  It's sort of the opposite approach of all the guys you've been talking about who like to pretend they're the designer.




Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2021, 12:35:15 PM »
Mike,


One of the best little bits of business advice I ever got was, "When times are good, manage on the supply side, when times are tough, manage on the cost side."  When the market was hot, I always carried one extra staff to ensure service.  When markets were cold (for me) I ran one or one half man short to cut costs.  Now, mostly to ease the administrative side, I just contract pay as I go.

We're both cut from the same cloth, LOL.  BTW, also agree with TD that one of the biggest problems in architecture and landscape architecture is wanting to appear more professional, and above all else, never appearing to be selling your work.  I think that was even in the AIA bylaws for a long time, as was a ban on advertising.  No one works until someone sells something!


TD, yes, stubby finger syndrome!  They were over a million cubic meters, not a billion.  As to the Pete Dye method, yes perhaps I am repeating rumors or sour grapes, I can't really say.  However, I have heard many owners rue the inefficiencies,  notably sending newbie shapers in, then having a more experienced guy come in every three months, then having the big guy (and gal) come in even less often.  Of course, I have heard that from every owner's rep for any architect led design-build firm.  They may accept it as necessary to use a big name, but it doesn't mean they don't gripe about it behind your back, LOL.  And it's not just the small boutique firms, big names like Fazio, JN, etc. all have the reputation of making last minute and expensive changes at least at some point of their careers.  Sometimes, its necessary, of course, but its always frustrating to most.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2021, 05:26:52 PM »
Mike,


Interesting discussion and some good points. 


Whilst I get the derision of people calling themselves professional architects, I think you have to be careful not to deride the amateur, part time and hobby architects themselves.


Most the the great courses of the first Golden Age were designed by amateurs, hobbyists and semi professionals.  My opinion would be that it allowed for a far greater amount of collaboration and allowed courses to be designed and built slower.  Both of these were important factors in the outcome.


As someone who has worked both in a design firm and as an amateur, i see many advantages to amateur designing today.  No upselling and trying to create work for oneself in a tough market, no commercial hindrance to collaboration,  not as much rush to get projects completed. 


I think hobbyist, part timers, and amateurs could be much better for golf and do a much better job than what many of the professionals have done over the last 50 years.





Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2021, 06:39:04 PM »
Mike,


Interesting discussion and some good points. 


Whilst I get the derision of people calling themselves professional architects, I think you have to be careful not to deride the amateur, part time and hobby architects themselves.


Most the the great courses of the first Golden Age were designed by amateurs, hobbyists and semi professionals.  My opinion would be that it allowed for a far greater amount of collaboration and allowed courses to be designed and built slower.  Both of these were important factors in the outcome.


As someone who has worked both in a design firm and as an amateur, i see many advantages to amateur designing today.  No upselling and trying to create work for oneself in a tough market, no commercial hindrance to collaboration,  not as much rush to get projects completed. 


I think hobbyist, part timers, and amateurs could be much better for golf and do a much better job than what many of the professionals have done over the last 50 years.
David,I'm for whatever floats one's boat.  I'm just asking in the topic for how many can do just design.  Not many...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2021, 06:54:04 PM »

Tom,I recall you and I both began about the same time.  My payroll began about the same time and in order to keep it I have had to improvise outside of just pure design.  I have a set up where a guy can come in in the morning and mow greens, open the proshop and go upstairs to a drafting table for most of the day...that's pretty vertical.  When you and I entered I think we both had a design/build/craft philosophy that was not really accepted readily by the Industry.  You developed a national reputation.  I didn't.  But it was all sort of outlaw. ( FBI wanted you and only the sheriff wanted me)  Today guys like Green, Frantz and your guys are becoming the cool way to go.  Things have changed.  I was asked the other day to recommend some younger guys who could work on a project for the next few years and I thought "damn, am I that old?"




Mike:


I have seen your "vertical" model in operation and admire it.  Too many of my associates and interns would have thought that was beneath them, somehow, which is too bad because some of them might still be in the business today if they had caught on. 


There are a lot of guys who are caught up in being seen as "professionals" and they let it get in the way of the work.  Even some of my own associates [past and present] had a complex about being seen as "construction guys" no matter how many times I told them that made them MORE valuable, not less.  But I understand it, because I tell most people that "I build golf courses," and if they keep asking questions and I admit to being a designer, they suddenly seem much more impressed.  It's sort of the opposite approach of all the guys you've been talking about who like to pretend they're the designer.
I had always assumed your guys had gotten past that.  There is no comparison between your guys who have been in the fields and guys who have just had experience in the office of a plan based firm...IMHO...A good construction based builder/designer can make a pretend architect look like he knows what he is doing...ask some of the tour player designers..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2021, 07:00:23 PM »
  As to the Pete Dye method, yes perhaps I am repeating rumors or sour grapes, I can't really say.  However, I have heard many owners rue the inefficiencies,  notably sending newbie shapers in, then having a more experienced guy come in every three months, then having the big guy (and gal) come in even less often. 


Ohhhh . . . that explains EVERYTHING.  You are talking about the Perry Dye method, not his dad's! 


Pete was never beholden to any "big guy" shaper, ever.  He would be happy to explain it all to a guy who built house pads for a living, because that guy wasn't going to editorialize.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2021, 07:37:52 PM »
Mike,

We're both cut from the same cloth, LOL.  we all are ;D
BTW, also agree with TD that one of the biggest problems in architecture and landscape architecture is wanting to appear more professional, and above all else, never appearing to be selling your work.  I think that was even in the AIA bylaws for a long time, as was a ban on advertising.  No one works until someone sells something! 
Read the book. A Difficult Par which I don't think is ever mentioned by ASGCA but it is a very well done book.  When you read the part about RTJ wanting to make it look like a profession it became obvious to me it was a deliberate intent to separate from guys who worked like Dick Wilson.  That was the beginning of the dark ages in golf design...From what I can/could detect my issues with ASGCA always came back to advertising or selling etc based on comments from local guys who had lost a job to us.  All total BS...

  As to the Pete Dye method, yes perhaps I am repeating rumors or sour grapes, I can't really say.  However, I have heard many owners rue the inefficiencies,  notably sending newbie shapers in, then having a more experienced guy come in every three months, then having the big guy (and gal) come in even less often.    Do what??Seems there have always been rumors coming from the Plaid side of things..You were always nice enough to shoot me straight on such but they were still rumors you would tell me of... Of course, I have heard that from every owner's rep for any architect led design-build firm.  Of course...lot of back scratching going on between "professional" designers and general contractors.  Neither wants the design/ build guy around 
How many times do you think a large GC got in front of a developer client to tell them to use a Nicklaus etc instead of Pete Dye and used the rumor you mention above?  Answer: all the time
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2021, 08:16:22 PM »
Jeff/Tom/Mike:


The best design (and practical) theories I learned at Rutgers were:


1. Water runs downhill - unless pumped - don't ever forget that.
2. Never forget Rule #1
3. Form follows function.
4. People and objects move through spaces, not not between spaces.


The best example I ever saw personally of #4 in golf was the JN design of Twin Eagles in Naples.  Now I'm not opining on the course or routing but the movement and passing of players between green & the next tee corridors.  The modulation of space and planting design between holes was just outstanding.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2021, 08:50:13 AM »
Good thread, Mike.


If I think about the numbers in Europe working full time in only GCA, they are a little higher than your US projections. But I bet half of them are living on not too big an income.


I’ve never worked full time in golf course design. I balance it with engineering and construction outside of golf courses.


I could have taken the risk and chased work full time, scrimping and saving. But I got in to the business in my mid-thirties with a family and a mortgage. I got offered one full-time office job as an associate but it would have paid minimum wage or straight out of college entrance salary. And I would have had to relocate the whole family to another country to live on the breadline as someone’s lackey... it was much better to work part-time for myself.


... so my ambitions have now altered to the other end of my career. With a bit of luck, I can be financially stable enough to retire from the other work at 55ish and then take the risk of earning a lot less money as a full time GCA (who may or may not be full time).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 08:54:14 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2021, 09:00:21 AM »
I think everyone has a different story how they got into the GCA business.  Some had little or no training or experience and were mainly just passionate about the game and decent golfers.  Here are a few names to ponder - Fowler, Emmet, Langford, Macdonald, Maxwell, Park Jr., Simpson, Thomas, Tillinghast, Travis, Hugh Wilson,... Most of them did ok.


My advice to anyone who wants to try to get in this business is the same exact advice Jim Engh gave me 20 years ago - "Just have fun with it.”  He knew it would be difficult and competition would be brutal.  He knew if you had to feed the family from just your GCA income it was going to be very challenging and you might starve.  But he also knew if you never took the chance you would probably always regret it even if you failed.  The last rung on the ladder of failure is success and most things in life you have to fail at before you succeed.  I am happy to talk to anyone looking at this field and to offer my two cents.  Feel free to contact me as I like to pay it forward. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 09:38:01 AM by Mark_Fine »

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many make a living doing just golf design in the USA?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2021, 09:32:13 AM »
 ;D


Some great stuff guys. 


I remember thinking 🤔 that rather than go to work after caddying and graduating college would take a shot at being a golf pro. Having shot a few low scores without working too hard and being a decent athlete thought it was a possibility despite my lack of credentials in junior tournaments.  (23 years old ) Didn’t have any money  and had to practice in my off time or day off. Got better quick then took a bad lesson from a renowned teaching pro in FLA  and never recovered. Did however extend my childhood a couple years and it wasn’t a complete loss.


I guess my point is that when playing golf the indicators of success come at you pretty fast. Numbers don't l We used to talk that if no one in the tri state area would play you for money you might have a shot at being a player. If you could shoot around 65 every day you might be ready to try and step it up. As to senior guys Harvey Penicks Tom Kite story is the best.


So Mike makes good sense. In most businesses hard work and a little talent eventually pay off, some as W Buffett has suggested way out of proportion!  Golf course architecture isn’t one of these occupations. Just the facts , Jack
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 12:01:50 PM by archie_struthers »

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