[astavrides]

I couldn't find anywhere else on the Web that was talking about this so I am doing it here...


On Sunday, on #11 at the Stadium course, Tony Finau hit his second shot into the water. He couldn't see where it went in from where he hit it, but, of course, the tv viewers could. He ended up taking a drop right next to the green, when in actuality he should have been quite a bit back and having a short pitch over water to a tight pin.
A couple minutes before the drop was taken, one of the announcers, Curt Byrum I think, said something about he and his caddy being in the wrong place, but nobody else said anything about it the rest of the broadcast.
Finau seems like a really good guy, so I have zero suspicion that he gave himself the benefit of the doubt or anything like that.
I think the tours don't take viewer call-ins about that stuff anymore (not that I personally would have called in).
Someone said bad drops are the golf rule that is most often broken on tour.
Should Byrum have told the on-course announcer to tell Finau where the ball went in the water? Announcers don't seem to have any problem relaying info to a player when he is looking for a lost ball. How is this any different (other than it hurts the player instead of helping him, but it protects the field).

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm surprised that didn't happen, as you often see TV replay used to determine proper drop location. Was there someone walking with the group?

[JLahrman]

Should Byrum have told the on-course announcer to tell Finau where the ball went in the water? Announcers don't seem to have any problem relaying info to a player when he is looking for a lost ball. How is this any different (other than it hurts the player instead of helping him, but it protects the field).

I suppose the main difference would be that where the ball went into the water or the line of flight that it took is a bit more subjective than just happening upon a ball (even if the announcer was actively helping look for it). It would also kind of be involving the announcer in enforcing a rule, while helping look for a ball is not really helping to enforce a rule. But the line does get to be thin.

[astavrides]

I'm surprised that didn't happen, as you often see TV replay used to determine proper drop location. Was there someone walking with the group?

Yeah, there was. There were in the last group of the day. Maybe Aaron Obelholser. If Finau had thought of it, he could have asked him. The playing competitors must not have seen where it went in.

[astavrides]

Should Byrum have told the on-course announcer to tell Finau where the ball went in the water? Announcers don't seem to have any problem relaying info to a player when he is looking for a lost ball. How is this any different (other than it hurts the player instead of helping him, but it protects the field).

I suppose the main difference would be that where the ball went into the water or the line of flight that it took is a bit more subjective than just happening upon a ball (even if the announcer was actively helping look for it). It would also kind of be involving the announcer in enforcing a rule, while helping look for a ball is not really helping to enforce a rule. But the line does get to be thin.

I've seen the situation you describe and yeah, that often leads to bad drops too, but as you allude to, that's a judgement call.


In this case, the ball actually rolled in to the water. (Water is still water, I'm pretty sure, even though announcers avoid saying any word beginning with 'w' now to make sure they say 'penalty area' not 'water'). Or at worst it was taking low bounces when it went in. And the water was roughly perpindicular to the direction of travel of the shot. So no subjectivity involved.

[JESII]

JL, this ball was rolling so they really could have identified the exact spot.


I think it's as simple as help when you can but don't hurt them. Not sure I like it, but that's the M.O. on tour it seems. 


Anybody see the drop granted last week for the guy against the OB fencing? I forget the player but he suggested he'd flip the club over and go for the green from 250 ish out of the trees. In that scenario, the tall temporary fencing was in his line of sight so he got a free drop away from the OB fence.

[Mark Kiely]

(Water is still water, I'm pretty sure, even though announcers avoid saying any word beginning with 'w' now to make sure they say 'penalty area' not 'water'). Or at worst it was taking low bounces when it went in. And the water was roughly perpindicular to the direction of travel of the shot. So no subjectivity involved.

Yes, why is it that since the rules change announcers feel like they can't use "lake" or "water" anymore? Just don't use "hazard" and you're good.


Also agree about Finau's drop.

[Pete_Pittock]

I saw the ball roll in but did not see the drop. If I remember correctly it was a draw from about 240 yds with an intervening ridge.
Since Finau was last to hit, it was unlikley that playing companions would have been close enough to have a really good vantage point.  I thought a rules official was supposed to be monitoring the broadcast, they do in USGA events. In any case, this is the appropriate rule and interpretations
7.1d(3)/2 – Player Drops Ball Based on Estimate of Where the Ball Last Crossed Edge of Penalty Area That Turns Out to Be the Wrong Point. If the point where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area is not known, a player must use his or her reasonable judgment to determine the reference point.
Under Rule 1.3b(2), the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if that reference point turns out to be wrong. However, there are situations when, before the player has made a stroke it becomes known that the reference point is wrong and this mistake must be corrected. For example, in stroke play, it is virtually certain that a player’s ball is in a red penalty area. The player, having consulted with the other players in the group, estimates where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. The player takes lateral relief and drops a ball in the relief area based on that reference point. But before making a stroke at the dropped ball, one of the players in the group finds the player’s original ball in the penalty area in a position indicating that the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area approximately 20 yards closer to the hole than the reference point the player had estimated. Because this information became known before the player made a stroke at the dropped ball, he or she must correct the error under Rule 14.5 (Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball). In doing so, the player must proceed under Rule 17.1 with respect to the correct reference point and may use any relief option under that Rule (see Rule 14.5b(2)).

[astavrides]

Ok, this time the bad drop kind of determined the outcome of the tournament. Not sure if he had it crossing the margin of the hazard at the correct place, but when they showed the overhead shot, Leishman's drop on #16 was obviously closer to the hole. Again, I don't think he did it on purpose, but maybe subconsciously... It put him closer to the green and on a flatter lie. Should have had a more uphill lie. Not sure why it bothers me so much. But if it had been me who did it, I don't know how I could live with myself.

[Jason Topp]

I thought it looked about right. It crossed the line near the sprinkler head. 

[Tim Leahy]

I thought it was closer to the hole than it should have been too. If you had drawn a line from the hole to the point where it crossed the margin of the hazard, the point no nearer the hole would be 90 degrees within his 2 club lengths. His drop was closer to 45 degrees.

[David_Elvins]

I thought it was closer to the hole than it should have been too. If you had drawn a line from the hole to the point where it crossed the margin of the hazard, the point no nearer the hole would be 90 degrees within his 2 club lengths. His drop was closer to 45 degrees.

This was the bit I didn't understand. 


Where he put his second tee down looked about a yard out.

[Jim_Coleman]

  How often does a fellow competitor disagree with a player's decision?  I can't think of a time, and it certainly isn't common.  (Remember Tom Watson calling out Gary Player at the Skins Game after stating he had been improving lies, without objection, for years. Or Casey Wittenberg's backing Tiger's very controversial drop at the Player's)  They (almost)always defer to the player's point of view.  And, of course, backstopping is a blatant questionable activity.  If a rules official or TV doesn't get involved, no one will.

[Rob Marshall]

If he didn’t see the ball go in the water and apparently no one saw where it went in the water it sounds like a lost ball.

[David_Elvins]

If he didn’t see the ball go in the water and apparently no one saw where it went in the water it sounds like a lost ball.

You only need to be reasonably certain the ball is in the water.  You dont need to see it go in.  The absence of a ball anywhere else it is expected to be is enough evidence that it is in the water.

[Rob Marshall]

If he didn’t see the ball go in the water and apparently no one saw where it went in the water it sounds like a lost ball.

You only need to be reasonably certain the ball is in the water.  You dont need to see it go in.  The absence of a ball anywhere else it is expected to be is enough evidence that it is in the water.

Really, It couldn't be lost in the rough, under a leaf, or somewhere else? I didn't see the shot or know the hole. I've hit a shot over a hill where there was a pond to be told to go back to the tee by the official because we couldn't just assume it went in the water.

[Mark Smolens]

There is no question that the ball went into the water. The television replay in slow motion showed the ball bouncing in the fairway, kicking left, and going down the hill past a sprinkler head into the water.


It looked to me that Leishman's first tee in the ground was placed in the correct location, where the ball last crossed the margin of the penalty area (nee hazard). From the angle of the video that I saw, it would be hard to assess whether or not the second tee correctly placed 1 club length away was closer to the hole, but it's hard to imagine that he'd do that with the camera being right there.

[astavrides]

There is no question that the ball went into the water. The television replay in slow motion showed the ball bouncing in the fairway, kicking left, and going down the hill past a sprinkler head into the water.


It looked to me that Leishman's first tee in the ground was placed in the correct location, where the ball last crossed the margin of the penalty area (nee hazard). From the angle of the video that I saw, it would be hard to assess whether or not the second tee correctly placed 1 club length away was closer to the hole, but it's hard to imagine that he'd do that with the camera being right there.

If I could find the overhead shot on the internet (I doubt I could) and I wanted to spend the time finding it (I don't)... I have very little doubt the second tee was in the wrong place.


I'm sure he didn't do it on purpose. I think it's probably the phenomenon where you want something to be true (i.e., he wanted to drop the ball there), so his mind convinced him it was no closer to the hole.

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