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AChao

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Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« on: January 26, 2021, 08:18:51 AM »
Hi everyone ... question ... I was reading in another thread that Tom Doak mentioned his co-designer had his team map out 3 of Tom's greens for use somewhere else at a later date.  Is there any IP in golf?  If Tom or any architect designs a green, shouldn't that architect "own" it and shouldn't any one else who uses it pay royalties? 


If not, what would stop anyone from finding a large piece of land with pine trees and re-build Augusta or another course for that matter?  I know there are "tribute" courses, but it seems a bit strange to be able to copy something and not pay for it.  Though not a perfect analogy, if you write a song and someone sings it on TV, they have to pay for it.  Just curious ... I'm not a lawyer.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2021, 09:19:36 AM »




This might be of some help in answering your question:


In 1990, Congress passed the Architectural Works Copyright Protection Act (AWCPA) to protect the intellectual property of architects. In order to minimize accusations of infringement, there are certain things you should know about the scope of what is protected and how to protect yourself. While there is no surefire way to prevent infringement claims, there are ways to limit the chance of such claims occurring.
First, you need to understand the scope of protection for architectural works. Under the AWCPA, an architectural work is statutorily defined as “the design of a building as embodied in any tangible medium of expression, including a building, architectural plans or drawings,” and “includes the overall form as well as the arrangement and composition of spaces and elements in the design, but does not include individual standard features,” such as common windows, doors, and other staple building components. Accordingly, per the definition, while individual standard features and architectural elements classifiable as ideas or concepts are not themselves copyrightable, an architect’s original combination or arrangement of such elements may be.
There are two major elements that impact copyright claims:


  • You cannot copyright an idea, only original expressions of that idea.
  • Certain elements of architectural design are so common that they are, by law, unprotected.
To prove copyright infringement, a plaintiff must show: (1) ownership of a valid copyright; and (2) copying by the defendant of the protected elements of the copyrighted work. Copying may be established by showing that the defendant had access to the plaintiff’s work and that the two works are “substantially similar.” To determine substantial similarity, the court engages in a two-part inquiry: the allegedly infringing work must be both objectively similar (the “extrinsic test”) and subjectively similar (the “intrinsic test”) to the copyrighted work. The extrinsic test is an objective measure of whether the two works share clear, specific similarities.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:21:44 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2021, 09:36:24 AM »
You may recall Tour 18 got sued by Harbor Town.  In the end, they ruled that copying the 18th hole was okay, but not the iconic lighthouse structure behind the green.


After a design competition, the owner mentioned that one of the other plans had used a certain area that my routing didn't use, and they wanted me to explore using that.  I did, but slightly differently. When the other (who lost the competition) gca found out, he briefly threatened some sort of action, but backed off. It would have been hard to prove since the holes were different, and I presume, because routing isn't a finished design.  He might have had to prove my bunkering, grading, etc. was all the same, if that even applied legally.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:39:52 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2021, 12:36:28 PM »

After a design competition, the owner mentioned that one of the other plans had used a certain area that my routing didn't use, and they wanted me to explore using that.  I did, but slightly differently. When the other (who lost the competition) gca found out, he briefly threatened some sort of action, but backed off. It would have been hard to prove since the holes were different, and I presume, because routing isn't a finished design.  He might have had to prove my bunkering, grading, etc. was all the same, if that even applied legally.


It would be nice if the client would just offer to pay the other guy a little bit for his trouble on something like that, but it seldom if ever happens.


Bottom line, if you enter a competition, aren't you pretty much giving away your ideas, without the presence of any fine print that says otherwise?  You just have to trust that the client will decide fairly, instead of hiring the guy he likes, and borrowing ideas from everyone else.  Which is why I don't enter many competitions.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2021, 12:43:44 PM »
To be fair, this was a casino course, and all three times I have been asked to interview for casinos/tribes, they offered $3500 to put together some ideas and make a presentation.  You are correct that not many are fair about it, but that hasn't been a problem.


And I think I won fair and square.  While that other gca had a few holes they liked, I visited the property and I made sure I showed photos of my site walk to let them know I had really studied their land.  He didn't.  And my routing didn't wipe out their RV park, while his did! 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2021, 09:46:48 PM »
Robert Trent Jones, Jr. has been passionate about getting congress to add Golf Course Architects to the architectural clause. I think this will happen. Lindsey Graham is on board, and Bob has many other friends in the Senate. ASGCA has been forward in our support — the basis being that GCA deserves the same benefits as building architects. Our proposed bill language includes provisions for digital and gaming. 
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2021, 10:56:24 PM »
You may recall Tour 18 got sued by Harbor Town.  In the end, they ruled that copying the 18th hole was okay, but not the iconic lighthouse structure behind the green.


After a design competition, the owner mentioned that one of the other plans had used a certain area that my routing didn't use, and they wanted me to explore using that.  I did, but slightly differently. When the other (who lost the competition) gca found out, he briefly threatened some sort of action, but backed off. It would have been hard to prove since the holes were different, and I presume, because routing isn't a finished design.  He might have had to prove my bunkering, grading, etc. was all the same, if that even applied legally.
Jeff,


I don’t understand that legal ruling. When I played Harbor Town a couple times I thought 18 was a pretty good hole and didn’t think too much about the Lighthouse.
Tim Weiman

AChao

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2021, 03:00:29 AM »

Thanks everyone ... this is pretty interesting.


That ruling on Harbour Town 18 is odd in my view.  Sounds like someone could theoretically build 18 holes of Augusta National and as long as you don't build the clubhouse or "The Masters" scoreboards, you'd be OK.


That "common" clause is interesting.  I get there will be holes that look alike, but if you build the exact same green, I'd think the first architect should get royalties.  If I used the architect's work for my house and built another one exactly the same, I'd think I'd have to pay the original architect something for the second house.  With pictures, I think you do have to pay unless you've negotiated a different license.



You may recall Tour 18 got sued by Harbor Town.  In the end, they ruled that copying the 18th hole was okay, but not the iconic lighthouse structure behind the green.


After a design competition, the owner mentioned that one of the other plans had used a certain area that my routing didn't use, and they wanted me to explore using that.  I did, but slightly differently. When the other (who lost the competition) gca found out, he briefly threatened some sort of action, but backed off. It would have been hard to prove since the holes were different, and I presume, because routing isn't a finished design.  He might have had to prove my bunkering, grading, etc. was all the same, if that even applied legally.
Jeff,


I don’t understand that legal ruling. When I played Harbor Town a couple times I thought 18 was a pretty good hole and didn’t think too much about the Lighthouse.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2021, 03:09:13 AM »
If the add golf architecture in, the first guy to design a Redan is going to make a fortune. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 10:18:47 AM »

Thanks everyone ... this is pretty interesting.

That ruling on Harbour Town 18 is odd in my view.  Sounds like someone could theoretically build 18 holes of Augusta National and as long as you don't build the clubhouse or "The Masters" scoreboards, you'd be OK.

That "common" clause is interesting.  I get there will be holes that look alike, but if you build the exact same green, I'd think the first architect should get royalties.  If I used the architect's work for my house and built another one exactly the same, I'd think I'd have to pay the original architect something for the second house.  With pictures, I think you do have to pay unless you've negotiated a different license.



IANAL, but as I understood it, the ruling about TOUR 18 was ultimately that the design of golf holes was too amorphous to copyright, but that a recognizable trademark like the striped lighthouse could be protected, especially since it had nothing to do with building a golf course.  It was only there to refer back to the other property.


Likewise, TOUR 18 is no longer allowed to advertise what holes they have copied.  They can say they have imitated holes from a list of courses, but if they focus on a specific one that's an infringement of trademark.


And in case you hadn't noticed, the name of The Masters is trademarked and aggressively protected.  If you want to buy a tour to go to the event, you will see it referred to in the brochure as "Spring Invitational Golf Tournament" or some such vague language; they aren't licensed to sell a tour to The Masters.




FWIW, I do not think there is any way to enforce golf course designs as intellectual property and am glad I'm not a member of an organization that is lobbying for same.  Every golf architect has borrowed from the past masters [oops] and the idea of suing another designer over the use of some idea you think was yours is pretty odious to me.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 10:40:20 AM »
Tom D: Golf course designs are already intellectual property, so I'm not sure you really understand this. The fact that "landscape designs" are held apart from buildings is because the AIA pushed for the Architectural Clause. In golf design there are situations where "designs" and being replicated and used on platforms where loads of money is being made, yet the core design — the game at hand — is bypassed in the chain of "rights". Whether Bob is successful is another matter. Congress has a lot on its plate, so I'm not holding my breath.

It's good for all if it happens. And, to be clear, "support" is much different than "lobbying". Besides the participation that ASGCA has contributed over the years to wetlands clarifications (relative to golf) and the occasional support given to some other environmental issues that affect golf design and building, we have no lobbying presence. We're a small group with a small staff, and we do our best to help the game as it relates to design.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve Lapper

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 10:44:24 AM »
I imagine the heirs of George Seurat might plan on using the Association of Pointillists to sue the estate of Roy Lichtenstein.... ::)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

BCrosby

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2021, 11:04:18 AM »
"Likewise, TOUR 18 is no longer allowed to advertise what holes they have copied.  They can say they have imitated holes from a list of courses, but if they focus on a specific one that's an infringement of trademark.

And in case you hadn't noticed, the name of The Masters is trademarked and aggressively protected.  If you want to buy a tour to go to the event, you will see it referred to in the brochure as "Spring Invitational Golf Tournament" or some such vague language; they aren't licensed to sell a tour to The Masters.

FWIW, I do not think there is any way to enforce golf course designs as intellectual property and am glad I'm not a member of an organization that is lobbying for same.  Every golf architect has borrowed from the past masters [oops] and the idea of suing another designer over the use of some idea you think was yours is pretty odious to me."


I agree, basically. Copyright protects the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. It has obvious application to things like novels or music where text or musical notations can be replicated fairly easily. Golf holes not so much. What counts as a replication of the 12th at ANGC? How close does your copy have to be to violate the holder of the design copyright? Does a different setting matter? Associating ANGC with your hole is a violation of the ANGC copyright, but absent using the ANGC name in connection with your hole, my guess is that a copyright violation will be hard to find based on a design c/r claim. Holes are hard to replicate, at least in any precise way.


Complicating things is ownership of the c/r. Even if you think there is a c/r violation, does the golf club or the architect own the c/r? I'd guess that the club, not the architect, owns the c/r in most cases.


I think what most people are talking about in the gca context is plagiarism. Few architects give attributions to ideas they use. I have never been clear about whether that is a crime (anyone know?), but in academia and journalism it is viewed as a violation of norms and can result in being fired and enormous reputational damage. But in the context of gca, the extent to which other peoples' design ideas are being copied is both common and hard to nail down.   


Bob   

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2021, 11:10:10 AM »
"Holes", Bob C, are different from "Courses" — so, I think that needs to be a factor. Just as one line of music generally does NOT lead to infringement, I doubt any single hole — unless it is iconic — would lead to infringement. Yet, an ENTIRE COURSE, duplicated (copied) in its full routing, details and every hole — would likely be deemed a "copy" and subject to some rights to the original designer.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Blake Conant

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2021, 11:27:12 AM »
Forrest,


If golf architects get added to the architectural clause, how are previous designs handled? Are they grandfathered in or would it be the wild west where the first arch to build a redan green or maiden green or copy the lido suddenly has the right to it? If designs or features are grandfathered, how do you catalogue all that?


Also, how would this clause define golf architect? What if I don't call myself a golf architect but I build golf courses? I see too much gray area there. Unlike building architects, we don't have certifications or a formal process to even determine what a golf architect is. I do see this as a convenient way for the ASGCA to try and formalize that, however, and be the ones who define it.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2021, 11:36:16 AM »
So....who owns the design of the golf course. The golf club or the designer. With an abscence of contract I am not sure an architect can have a legitimate claim or demand on another copying work.


Some architects clearly copy and use templates.


Some time ago (25 years) I designed/built an island green. The club started in their promotions calling it the 17th TPC...in my non opinion lawyer mind that would constitute a clear copying after all you have admitted it.


On that basis do I get sued or the golf club.


Should all island greens pay a royalty to Mr Dye....was he even the first, I think I played one in Morocco.


I would imagine to be eligible/credible you would need to submit an itemised drawing (as built) mapped to a very small vertical interval in order for it to be valid with clear rules as to how the copyrighting would work with replication. At this point the land/course owner would probably tell you to rev up. If you brought this up before the course was designed you probably would not get the gig.


IMO....it is best to have no copyright law in golf course architecture.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 11:38:34 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2021, 11:46:31 AM »
Adrian,



Who will get sued?  Everyone, of course. ;)


I agree in many ways with what you are saying.  Whether or not that is what RTJII had in mind, most of these legal expansions of definitions only benefit the lawyers who will argue it for some semi-angry client.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Topp

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2021, 12:33:20 PM »
I am surprised that an organization of golf course architects would want to broaden protections.  The protection one would get seems to me outweighed by the risk that would be created.   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2021, 01:00:55 PM »
I am surprised that an organization of golf course architects would want to broaden protections.  The protection one would get seems to me outweighed by the risk that would be created.




Look at it more a matter of them trying to restrain trade, which is the reason most professional societies exist.


Jeff B's heartwarming stories of RTJ Sr. voting against every candidate for membership in the organization tracks perfectly with his son wanting to stop others from stealing his ideas.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2021, 01:09:42 PM »
Adrian,


As  Forrest alludes to, I am not sure RTJII's efforts are universally or officially endorsed by ASGCA.  In general, we don't like the pigeonholing some associate us with. 


One of our biggest political efforts has always been opposing landscape architecture licensing of gca, as has been attempted in many states (usually by landscape architects or engineers)  I mean, when your most famous member was Pete Dye, it's hard to say that you need to pass a lot of tests and what not to practice gca, even if most of trained via an LA University program.  It has actually been a pretty difficult fight.  In Florida, some LA tried to pitch the idea that we were doing environmental harm and causing public safety issues.  One of our members totaled up the construction costs and annual revenues of courses designed by members, vs those designed by LA's, and the issue was dropped, for now at least.


TD,  Yes, that happened, and it was one of the reasons we worked so hard in the 1980s and 1990s to make the membership process more equitable and less subject to the whim of influential members.  But in some ways, Junior is cut from the same cloth as his father.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2021, 01:21:39 PM »
Forrest - It seems to me that expanding the c/r claim to the entire golf course makes the burden of proof for a claimant that much more difficult. So difficult that I would guess the costs of bringing a claim would out-weigh the likely payoff. It is different if a course is built to someone else's plans for which authorization was not given. That's a problem. But if the claims are based simply on resemblances, that strikes me a a serious uphill climb for a claimant.


What does the ASGCA standard contract say about ownership of c/r? Assume the architect has been paid in full.





Bob   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2021, 01:47:37 PM »
Bob,


The last version of AIA (and hence our ASGCA) version had the architect retaining all copyrights.  In the last few years, many lawyers for owners have tried hard to get the owner to have the copyright of a plan.  Some states even want to retain the intellectual ideas, not just the plans. So, the agreements have changed a bit, when forced to, with architects giving away the copyright, when paid in full, but retaining the right to use the plans for marketing and elements of those plans on future projects.  We also have to limit the clients use of any ideas to that project only, as there have been cases where an owner takes a detail for a retaining wall, for example, used it somewhere else without adapting the design to height or soils, and then when it fell down, actually suing the original gca for its failure. 


In one case, an owner actually took the concept idea for a retaining wall from the free concept submitted by a losing architect, told the winner to put that in his design, and then when it fell, even sued the guy who only drew a line on a color rendering. 


Very rare, but believe me, all of us recall those lawsuit disaster stories.


And, it's one of the reasons I sort of poo poo the plethora of young architects building things as if nothing could go wrong.  It's all fun and games until an owner gets in a financial bind.  We talked about passion on another thread, and I forgot to mention how much the first lawsuit kills the passion, or at least makes you more conservative, lol, not.  Gca's can lobby all they want for the design benefits of doing it in house, but they can't get insurance for construction, nor can they change the world we live in.  Mike talks about guys "playing architect" and it could be said that nearly every newb in the biz is doing that, until he realizes the legal responsibilities that go with the title.


And actually, over the years of a "standard" gca contract having ten pages of what we will do for the owner, and ten pages of what we won't, it sort of opened the ideas of other methods of practice.  If contractor led, and with proper insurance and financial strength, those aspects get hiding under the general liability of the contractor, who takes responsibility for the entire thing more naturally, as their bonding/insurance companies are used to millions of dollars in contracts.  The troubling part for gca's is, if you look at the design contracts for the design build institute of America, they really put all the responsibilities still on the gca, when in practice, the contractor controls things, using commercially available bridges, specifying the green sand on cost, not USGA, but asking us to "certify" that it is acceptable, etc.


Which leads me back to the old mantra of, "The owner owns, the designer designs, and the builder builds."  When things go haywire, its better for the architect!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 01:54:26 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2021, 01:56:06 PM »
Blake — I do not know. It seems to me that the proposed language — if this ever got to a bill in congress — may have had some language about that, just as the Architectural Clause did many decades ago.

Bob C — Everyone has a different contract. I think most use the clause that any plans are "Instruments of Commerce" and only to be used for the project at hand.

Tom D — That's a rumor. If RTJ, Sr. ever "voted" apart from being on the Board of ASGCA, it would only have been a ceremonial vote and would have had no affect on someone being accepted as a member. ASGCA no longer holds "ceremonial votes", leaving the matter to the Board. The Board changes every year. ASGCA has no mission to restrict trade, limit competition or define a "golf course architect" beyond the broadest of terms. Certainly there are GCA's who are not ASGCA members, or members of any other organization. Since you're a math/geomertry wiz, let me compare it to the SQUARE, RHOMBUS, RECTANGLE comparison. Take your pick. Personally, I'd like to be a RHOMBUS, although being a RECTANGLE may have its rewards.

Adrain — It depends on how the designer contracted their work. If I perform my work as a "Work for Hire" then the client owns everything. If his/her course is duplicated and becomes part of some gaming platform, then he/she reaps all of the rewards.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2021, 02:11:49 PM »
Forrest,


Indeed, the membership is voted on only by the BOG.  Mr. Jones left a note at the desk that he wanted me to have breakfast with him the next morning.  I was membership chairman that year, and he told me he couldn't stay for the "ceremonial" members vote later that day.  When I took out my pen to write down his vote for all 7 applicants that year, he said, "No need, all 7 are no."


BTW, I agree 150% about no restraint of trade in ASGCA.....no matter how many times Mike Young claims that is the truth! :o


As to your comment to Bob C, I believe the more common phrase is "instruments of service" in architectural contracts. (or agreements, which sounds more civil than "contract."  If your contracts said the owner owned everything prior to at least 2000 or so, you were a weird duck.......in yet one other way. :)


And my references were to the ASGCA standard contract, which I understand probably no one uses without altering it somewhat.  However, that is how it was intended to be used.  It was based on long used precepts from the AIA, Engineers, etc. that had been tested in court to properly allocate the relative risks of Owner and Architect.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lang

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Re: Intellectual Property and Golf Architecture
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2021, 02:16:12 PM »
 8)  WOULDN'T "AS-BUILT" PLANS HAVE TO BE SUBMITTED TO PROVE "ORIGINAL WORKS OF AUTHORSHIP"... THAT SEEMS PROBLEMATIC TO CLAIMING COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT ON PAST WORKS TO FUTURE WORKS
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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