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Tim Gallant

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Higher tees
« on: January 25, 2021, 08:12:52 AM »
'Nearly every inland golf course in the world would benefit from raising most of its tees by three to six feet or more.'


Who said it, and are they right?!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2021, 09:30:29 AM »
No, they're wrong.


The beneficiary would be the non-thinking lazy golfer.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Steve Lang

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Re: Higher tees
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 09:36:30 AM »
 8)  Has to be The International Association of Teebox Renovators (TIATR) or The Golfing Orthopedics Association (TGOA)   :o
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
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Mike_Young

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Re: Higher tees
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 09:54:57 AM »
A great example would be to go to a golf course we built in 1994 in Brunswick, Ga.  New owner, nice guy but told me he doesn't want to deal with any architect...( I think Paul Cowley built a 19th hole for him, so Paul knows also).  website is https://www.heritageoaksgolfclub.com.   This is an island golf course at about 11 ft above sea level.  Go on the website and check his course photos where he has put some tees over 25 ft in the air....along with mucho bulkhead....very interesting concept....
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 09:56:37 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 10:48:41 AM »
Ideas like this is why many of us are busy these days  :D   And no I don't agree with the idea at all.  I personally like low profile tees whenever possible which is most of the time. 

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 10:53:25 AM »
A great example would be to go to a golf course we built in 1994 in Brunswick, Ga.  New owner, nice guy but told me he doesn't want to deal with any architect...( I think Paul Cowley built a 19th hole for him, so Paul knows also).  website is https://www.heritageoaksgolfclub.com.   This is an island golf course at about 11 ft above sea level.  Go on the website and check his course photos where he has put some tees over 25 ft in the air....along with mucho bulkhead....very interesting concept....
I think this is more to keep it the grass above water as opposed for playing conditions??
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2021, 11:00:54 AM »
A great example would be to go to a golf course we built in 1994 in Brunswick, Ga.  New owner, nice guy but told me he doesn't want to deal with any architect...( I think Paul Cowley built a 19th hole for him, so Paul knows also).  website is https://www.heritageoaksgolfclub.com.   This is an island golf course at about 11 ft above sea level.  Go on the website and check his course photos where he has put some tees over 25 ft in the air....along with mucho bulkhead....very interesting concept....
I think this is more to keep it the grass above water as opposed for playing conditions??
Do what???
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 02:53:17 PM »
'Nearly every inland golf course in the world would benefit from raising most of its tees by three to six feet or more.'

Who said it, and are they right?!




Mike Keiser might have said that, twenty years ago.  His customers said they liked elevated tees, and coincidentally, so did he.


There is certainly an appeal to having an elevated view sometimes; that's why golf course photographers used to tie a ladder to the back of their golf cart, before they had drones.


But raising most of the tees would get repetitive and variety is a key facet of design.  Having some uphill tee shots and some level tee shots is also nice.


The other piece of the puzzle is if you build up four or five different sets of tees, they block the view from the back unless you raise it even higher!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 02:59:07 PM »
I agree Tom!  What is worse is when they build a back tee that is lower than the tee directly in front of it  ::)  Believe it or not it happens.  At least offset them.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 03:00:59 PM »
All things being equal I probably prefer tee boxes simply mowed out of a flat spot, but I will say I always smile whenever I behold the tee boxes on the 9th at Wild Wing (Avocet), laid out by our own Jeff Brauer. The back couple sets are built into this pretty big mound that backs the previous green, and one of the tee pads sits on its own pedestal that's about 6 feet high on all sides (right side of photo below). It's so unusual that I perceive some land-sculpture value from it, as well as golf value (it provides a significant elevated-tee view on an otherwise flat course).
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2021, 03:08:41 PM »
There’d be quite a bit of retro-fit construction work involved on many a course. Too much for many/most in-house crews unless spread over a zillions years. A lot of carbuncles probably created too. Might be a nice little earner $€£ if you could get your hands on the work though.
Atb

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2021, 03:19:28 PM »
I seem to reside in the camp that prefers whatever is the most natural-looking is the best fit, but its hard to argue an elevated tee box is nice. I suspect if all 18 tees were raised, none of them would be special though!
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2021, 04:01:46 PM »
I remember seeing somewhere the ratio between elevating a tee and effective length changes. Something along the line of for every 3' of elevating the tee a drive goes X' further. Does anyone know what that ratio is?


There is a downhill par 3 that I play that has 3 tee boxes going up a hillside that is fairly steep. Each tee adds 15 yards or so, but is also 5-6 feet higher. The effect is that there is only a 1 club difference across four tee boxes.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
ugh.... ::) ::) :-[ :P :P
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2021, 05:15:59 PM »
'Nearly every inland golf course in the world would benefit from raising most of its tees by three to six feet or more.'


Who said it, and are they right?!


The owner of every company selling sand?


My guess would be RTJ Jr or Fazio. But maybe it goes back much further.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2021, 05:44:45 PM »
I remember seeing somewhere the ratio between elevating a tee and effective length changes. Something along the line of for every 3' of elevating the tee a drive goes X' further. Does anyone know what that ratio is?


There is a downhill par 3 that I play that has 3 tee boxes going up a hillside that is fairly steep. Each tee adds 15 yards or so, but is also 5-6 feet higher. The effect is that there is only a 1 club difference across four tee boxes.


Jim, it is yard for yard, or foot per foot of drop.  That also works out to % of uphill slope, i.e. 21 feet uphill, (7 yards) over 210 yards lengthens the hole 7 yards or 7/210 0r 0.033%.  I find the former works easier.


As to elevated tees, yes, they were (are?) pretty standard in gca.  Just go look some time.  In most cases (on average ground) getting up just a few feet does help the view.  One reason to keep tees higher is with more native grasses being planted between tee and fw, your view can be blocked by grass.


If they have been lowered, it may be more because of ADA requirements, or an aging golf population who get tired of hiking up those big tee slopes. 


I agree they should vary, and on gently rolling ground, the natural tee elevation often does naturally.  I usually try to put one level runway tees at ground level on gently uphill holes, to avoid what TD mentions - tees blocking views from other tees.  Many get cut into gentle hillsides to balance cut and fill.  On flat ground, they often get built up.


BTW, I recognize that tee in the pic above!  Conceptually, Larry Packard started the exaggerated free form tee movement in the 1970's, in reaction to the RTJ runway tees.  While many may get tired of similarly elevated tees today, 1970's architects and golfers had by then grown tired of ground level and/or simple rectangular tees.  In reality, why not make them somewhat unique artistic elements as well as the functional starting point of the hole?  It's not hard to do, even if I admit the above example is probably one of my more extreme.  That said, I will never forget my design brief from the Japanese client.  After building two fairly plain Willard Byrd courses, he directed me that he "wanted more fru fru." ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2021, 06:03:37 PM »
'Nearly every inland golf course in the world would benefit from raising most of its tees by three to six feet or more.'


Who said it, and are they right?!


James Braid
no
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2021, 06:15:40 PM »
A great example would be to go to a golf course we built in 1994 in Brunswick, Ga.  New owner, nice guy but told me he doesn't want to deal with any architect...( I think Paul Cowley built a 19th hole for him, so Paul knows also).  website is https://www.heritageoaksgolfclub.com.   This is an island golf course at about 11 ft above sea level.  Go on the website and check his course photos where he has put some tees over 25 ft in the air....along with mucho bulkhead....very interesting concept....
I think this is more to keep it the grass above water as opposed for playing conditions??
Do what???


11ft above sea level = flood prone.  Maybe that is why they elevated the tees?
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2021, 06:23:57 PM »
Gary Player?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

archie_struthers

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Re: Higher tees
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2021, 07:04:25 PM »
 8)


Maybe a couple inches above the natural grade for drainage purposes but certainly not a fan of raised boxes. Nice to pop one in a hillside on occasion.  However, think this works best on back tee where better and typically fitter (younger) players tend to play.


Love when they just put the markers in the fairway for the juniors and seniors by the way. Less maintenance and really flexible for wear and tear and yardage.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 07:07:41 PM by archie_struthers »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2021, 07:11:02 PM »
Archie,
Agree with all you said.  We often use just markers in the fairway as you say prior to building an formal low profile tees.  This helps get buy-in from the golfers who will play there.  I have found most like formal tees (needed for scorecards and handicaps, etc.)  When we do par three courses for the day, we generally just use markers in the fairway along with a temporary scorecard so this can be adjusted as often as the club likes. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2021, 08:01:57 PM »
11ft above sea level = flood prone.  Maybe that is why they elevated the tees?
JOHN,Here are the specs:
Oak Grove Island is classified as a Island in Glynn County, Georgia.
...
Feature Name:[/t][/t]
Oak Grove Island
Latitude:[/t]
31.2307838 North
Longitude:[/t]
-81.5817713 West
Elevation:[/t]
10 Feet above MSL (3 mtrs)

When we built this course there were already 100 homes there..now 400 so while 11 ft elev. is low it works with pads.  Look at the photos...this is not a case of just raising a tee....the existing tees worked fine. And still do.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 08:13:32 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_beene

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Re: Higher tees
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2021, 08:23:04 PM »
Desmond Muirhead?

Tim Gallant

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Re: Higher tees
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2021, 04:48:14 PM »
Desmond Muirhead?


Correct!!!!


I was reading his book with St Andrews caddie Tip Anderson on 'How to play the old course' and came across a debate they had about a 'new' raised tee on the 8th hole of TOC. Here's the full exchange:


T: Frankly, I like the puzzle from the shorter tee [lower down].


D: It's a formidable hole from this new tee. We know that the higher you are, the more wind you have to combat. Up here, on this higher tee, you can see everything before you - the huge green with its pervasive sense of endless flatness - just as you can at the tiny Postage Stamp at Troon.


T: None of us like this new tee. [Gotta love the bluntness here :) ]


D: My complaint would be that the surface of the tee is not big enough. Otherwise, I have to admit that I like it. As an architect, I like the symbolic power you get from hitting off higher tees and the better view it offers of the target. You're no longer in the puts; you're king of the castle. Conservatives might not like to hear this, but nearly every inland golf course in the world would benefit from raising most of its tees by three to six feet, or more.[size=78%] [/size]

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Higher tees
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2021, 11:55:07 PM »
I wish I could remember where I heard this and I think it was related to my home course in Dallas: Desmond Muirhead was visiting and made the guy he was with stand on tee benches to show how much better the course would be with the tees raised. I think it was either Ben Crenshaw or the writer who is pretty famous from around here who comes to our club sometimes ( he wrote a Hogan book) Sorry I am getting too forgetful. If either are reading this or someone can fill in the blanks please do.