If clubhouses disappeared ......

[Kalen Braley]

Has anyone joined a club and found out the clubhouse was too small?

Meaning you actually had to wait to be seated on a regular basis to get a meal, etc...

[John Kavanaugh]

Most of us old guys have been members of clubs where the clubhouse has been made larger over time. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

...well, for starters, club dues would be reduced. Would also imply a "golf club only" mantra. I, for one, would welcome that. My wife, OTOH, maybe not so much.


If anyone seeks two great examples of what the OP suggests, look at:


1. Dunes Club
2. Black Sheep : https://blacksheepgolfclub.com/

[John Kavanaugh]

Club dues are never reduced because of cost savings.

[Garland Bayley]

This is a follow-up to this thread - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69284.0.html - where more than a few suggested that the biggest waste of money within golf is clubhouse related.


So, if clubhouses disappeared tomorrow and were replaced by small buildings where you could use the toilets, grab and snack and a drink, buy some balls and tees, arrange a lesson, sit for a few minutes pre/post round would this be acceptable to you?


Atb

Absolutely! Sounds like many public golf courses here. I'm about done with the private club model in the U. S.

[Garland Bayley]

Club dues are never reduced because of cost savings.

If they would get rid of the kitchen staff, and offer prepackaged snack items, there would be no need to charge the F&B minimum for overpriced lousy food and drinks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Private course memberships are a complete waste of money if you are not interested in club life.


I get the best pours behind closed doors. Absolutely love everyone who works at my clubs. It would be immoral to wish their jobs away so I could save a few bucks.

[George Smiltins]

...well, for starters, club dues would be reduced. Would also imply a "golf club only" mantra. I, for one, would welcome that. My wife, OTOH, maybe not so much.


If anyone seeks two great examples of what the OP suggests, look at:


1. Dunes Club
2. Black Sheep : https://blacksheepgolfclub.com/

Has the Dunes Club/Black Sheep "minimal clubhouse with ok/pretty good course" model ever failed for a private club that is the only game in town? I live in Cleveland and we certainly don't have a club with this approach. If anyone was able to pull it off, I think they could easily poach 25 people from the big clubhouse clubs and be an attractive option for people who are not currently club affiliated. Is it only a matter of time until an established (but debt-ridden)  club in a city flooded with too many privates bulldozes their club house and puts a portable toilet in it's place?

[Steve Lang]

George,


There'll probably be a clubhouse fire first... 


What side of Cleveland do you live on?  Would you commute an hour  to a "golf club"?

[John Kavanaugh]

I play 90% of my golf at the course that is currently hosting the LPGA tournament of champions. The commercial they are running for the club is hilarious in context. They are not downplaying the opulence.

[Sean_A]

My wife and I are people who use our club. We eat there, drink there, golf there, play pickle-ball there, etc. I love a club with a nice clubhouse. But I completely agree that "less is more" when it comes to a clubhouse. Ours was grossly overbuilt and could be literally half the size it is.

I too like a nice house that is well furnished and very comfortable. I just don't need a gin palace. Usually, the bigger the house the less atmosphere exists.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

The clubhouse at Tara Iti is by far my favorite on any of the courses I've designed, and one of the smallest.


There's a dining area with room to seat about 30 indoors; a pro shop that is separately locked off; and two smallish locker rooms at the other end of a covered walkway.  It's essentially a big patio with those four core functions.  [The manager's office is in a separate building about 100 yards away.]


But you're in New Zealand, and most days the indoor/outdoor life works perfectly.  It is so relaxing and I'm sure it's one reason everybody loves the place so much.

[Steve Kohler]

So much depends on how the club functions in its members’ lives.  The clubhouse needs for a suburban, family oriented country club could be vastly different than a “golf only” club, even with similar membership levels.  In either case, efficient use of physical space should be a priority.  The overhead on underutilized physical space is a money-sucking anchor on a club.
 
My preference would lean towards a smaller, thoughtfully designed clubhouse.  Chechessee Creek is a great example that I've personally seen. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I enjoy a nice clubhouse. I like a nice locker room with snacks, shoe service, and a nice place to sit and relax. I like a nice grill or dining room with excellent food. I'd find it hard to join a club that had a little shack with snacks and burgers. It doesn't have to be big. Nanea doesn't have a big clubhouse but it is a grand place to sit, have lunch, and relax after a round. Hidden Creek's clubhouse isn't very big but it is a grand place to hang out.


I was a member at the Country Club at Woodmore outside DC for 25 years. We added dining space, enlarged the pro shop and locker room. It was worth every penny. On the other hand the new clubhouse opened in 2007. It was not a good time to go into debt. We had to sell the club. But we did too much. We did a complete redo of the practice area, regrassed the entire golf course and removed a thousand trees. The interesting thing is that the board asked the membership which of the three we should do. We said enlarge the clubhouse. The board decided to do all four and gave us a huge assessment. Members left in droves. If we had only done one of the projects we would have been fine.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Everyone enjoys a nice clubhouse, sure.  No one enjoys paying for them.


I wonder how China Golf is doing, given their penchant for building huge clubhouses.

[Jeff Schley]

Tommy good lesson that boards can't just tax and spend as members have choices and if they aren't saddled with a large bond to keep them there, can and do walk.  Out of curiosity which of those projects did you vote for?  In retrospect which one if done first do you think would have allowed the club to survive and then thrive?

[Ira Fishman]

Golf clubs seem to be second only to Marketing in the difficulty of finding good ROI data. I maintain that investing to have an interesting, fun, well maintained course pays bigger dividends in terms of attracting/retaining members than investing in an elaborate clubhouse and other amenities. But I never have found a lick of data to prove it or disprove it.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Ira -
but is an elaborate clubhouse actually intended to attract-retain new members?

An actual question, not a rhetorical one.

For my tastes and temperament, the ugliest and least comfortable clubhouses are those that seem to serve no golf or golf-related function at all.

[Ira Fishman]

Ira -
but is an elaborate clubhouse actually intended to attract-retain new members?

An actual question, not a rhetorical one.

For my tastes and temperament, the ugliest and least comfortable clubhouses are those that seem to serve no golf or golf-related function at all.

Peter,


It certainly seems as if clubs invest in elaborate clubhouses to retain/attract members although I have heard competing for weddings, corporate events, etc as rationale too. My frustration if you will is that there seems no real evidence/data on any of the arguments one way or the other.


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy good lesson that boards can't just tax and spend as members have choices and if they aren't saddled with a large bond to keep them there, can and do walk.  Out of curiosity which of those projects did you vote for?  In retrospect which one if done first do you think would have allowed the club to survive and then thrive?

I voted to spend the money on the practice area and second choice was to regrass the course.

[Tim_Weiman]

...well, for starters, club dues would be reduced. Would also imply a "golf club only" mantra. I, for one, would welcome that. My wife, OTOH, maybe not so much.


If anyone seeks two great examples of what the OP suggests, look at:


1. Dunes Club
2. Black Sheep : https://blacksheepgolfclub.com/

Has the Dunes Club/Black Sheep "minimal clubhouse with ok/pretty good course" model ever failed for a private club that is the only game in town? I live in Cleveland and we certainly don't have a club with this approach. If anyone was able to pull it off, I think they could easily poach 25 people from the big clubhouse clubs and be an attractive option for people who are not currently club affiliated. Is it only a matter of time until an established (but debt-ridden)  club in a city flooded with too many privates bulldozes their club house and puts a portable toilet in it's place?

George,


I never thought of the buildings at Sand Ridge as being a big clubhouse, maybe because they are broken up.


Also, I always thought the old clubhouse at Big Met was perfect. Too bad they felt the need to replace it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The clubhouse at Tara Iti is by far my favorite on any of the courses I've designed, and one of the smallest.


There's a dining area with room to seat about 30 indoors; a pro shop that is separately locked off; and two smallish locker rooms at the other end of a covered walkway.  It's essentially a big patio with those four core functions.  [The manager's office is in a separate building about 100 yards away.]


But you're in New Zealand, and most days the indoor/outdoor life works perfectly.  It is so relaxing and I'm sure it's one reason everybody loves the place so much.

This type of clubhouse makes most sense commercially. I have a course at the moment with no clubhouse and this model is what I want to have. A central  area that is pro shop one side and Bar on the other side, an area of about 6 tables for food, big bi folders overlooking the last green with plenty of patio space. Two toilets, no changing room (do that in your car). The 'house' can be managed by 1 person in the winter! Serves>> Beer>>Soft Drink >> Sandwich >> Burger & Chips


Some people won't like it. I estimate 10% will not join because of the limited service.


A business that suits 90% of people's wants is much more sensible that catering for the 10%, but you can have niche markets ad certainly its not a one size fits all. Strangely many golf clubs are controlled by that 10% that want the club opened to fit around their lifestyle.


Existing situation is most clubs already have that clubhouse and to take it away poses a problem, it can only be done really as a last resort. Planning laws and values will be very different in various countries and I am only talking about the UK. A clubhouse could be valuable turned into residential property, in some situations it might nett £1,000,000.


In the right locations clubhouses can do well and are no burden. In the UK if your customers have to daily drive to and from the clubhouse they generally will be a financial drain. Ten good regulars in a local pub can make it a good business.

[Mark Pearce]

On my visit to Australia in 2016 I enjoyed my day at Port Fairy every bit as much as my day at National.  It is difficult to imagine two more different clubhouses.  I want to be able to change (which involves having decent showers), have a bite to eat (nothing flash but a decent, tasty lunch) and enjoy a beer.  I do not need more than this. 


At the smaller end of the scale, in recent years Port Fairy, Dunstanburgh Castle, Bamburgh Castle, Golspie, Anstruther and Brancepeth Castle (actually quite a large old building but they only use parts of it) have all been places where I have enjoyed all the above.

[Rick Lane]

For me, the end of the sentence “If clubhouses disappeared” would be “it would radically change my social life”.
Ours is a Golden age club with a 60,000 square foot clubhouse built in 1916.  It sits overlooking three tee boxes and three greens.  Has a large grill room, and an even larger “living room/ ballroom” that hosts many weddings as well as fundraising events from the cancer society, etc. Not to mention lots of nights where there is a band of some sort for a members event.  Has a wraparound patio overlooking all those tees and greens that creates a lot of opportunity after your round to hang around, see other friends playing, talk some trash, have a cocktail.  My wife and I are avid golfers and frequently spend most of the weekend days there, right through dinner with whatever friends are milling around which is usually quite a few. The food is off the charts good, as it has to be to compete with local restaurants. Would we build it if it didn’t exist?   Not sure, but the membership uses the heck out of it, and it’s the center of the social lives of hundreds of people.  Not sure which is the cart and which is the horse!

[Greg Smith]

I mostly grew up playing golf in a club environment at a reasonably nice, middle of the road place (as far as clubs go) in Northern Virginia.  The clubhouse did have all the standard things (locker room, showers, bar, grill, restaurant, bagroom, etc) but it wasn't too overdone -- and I think not more than the club could afford.

That clubhouse seemed like a palace to me at age 13, when I had first learned the game (age 10) at a much more hardscrabble club nearby that had practically nothing.  The facilities at this second club REALLY added a lot to my experience as a junior and made me look forward to visiting even more (though I would have done it for the golf anyway).  I played 3-4 times a week as a teenager.

After college my family didn't belong to the club anymore and it was public golf for me.  The courses I went to were fine -- middle of the road, somewhat upscale but not outrageously.  However, even at these reasonable courses the clubhouse amounted to a golf shack compared to the one at the old club.  It was not a place of your own where you could sit down and relax and order some drinks -- even though the drinks were available.

I think it had a lot to do with the anonymousness of the usual American public facility, to be sure.  I bet a humble golf shack in the UK would possess way more than enough charm to draw my attention.

The very best day of my golfing life thus far was spent at Merion.  Now, the golf course naturally had much to do with that.  However, the members I was playing with, the caddies, and all the staff were wonderful.  The clubhouse experience was sublime and wayyyyy on a different level than I was used to.

Wouldn't give any aspect of that day back, for any amount of money.  I'm totally aware that clubs and memberships often spend more on facilities than they can afford and that's bad.  But I would mourn the extinction of the really finest places the game has to offer -- and that includes clubhouses just as much as courses.  The really great ones are places that allow the membership to offer a style of friendship and interaction that enhances the game, not detracts.

I think both my old club and Merion did it well and did it appropriately.  I don't want either to go away.  The game of golf is also about building architecture, not just golf architecture.