If clubhouses disappeared ......

[Thomas Dai]

This is a follow-up to this thread - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69284.0.html - where more than a few suggested that the biggest waste of money within golf is clubhouse related.


So, if clubhouses disappeared tomorrow and were replaced by small buildings where you could use the toilets, grab and snack and a drink, buy some balls and tees, arrange a lesson, sit for a few minutes pre/post round would this be acceptable to you?


Atb

[Niall C]

David

It seems to me that what you just described is indeed a clubhouse. Perhaps not an all singing and dancing affair with ballroom, swimming pool, grill room and all that nonsense but still a clubhouse.

I think what you're really asking is what size of clubhouse would be acceptable ? What you describe would be fine by me but if you're going minimal do you really need/want or indeed warrant a professional ? (no offence to the professionals on here)

Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

I love a big grand clubhouse. I've never been able to drink in public places because of my occupation so love a great bar filled with people I know. I also eat over 300 meals a year at private clubs and prefer to do so in relatively empty rooms. I don't exercise much but when I do it's not going to be somewhere dark and dank. Haven't played tennis at the local park in years. Golf for me is about 35% golf and 80% life for me.


Have you ever joined a club in it's infancy before the clubhouse was completed? It's charming for sure, but so is Denny's with a hangover.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do hope that in 20 years when I'm in my 80's I'll have a big ole clubhouse to go out and eat breakfast while I bitch about the big old clubhouse. As I get older I believe I am spending more time at the course off the course.

[jeffwarne]

In NY we were allowed to operate golf only-no inside facilities and no restrooms, ,no nothing, last spring.
No carts, no range, no caddies, no bagroom, no staff.
I was the only non maintenance staff allowed on property under the title of "security guard", which was the mandate.
People brought their own drinks. snacks in the bag/pull cart

Rounds were way up, people were happy.
Play was brisk.


Kind've like it's always been at many courses throughout the US and the world for many years.
Those who were not comfortable using the bushes tended to play 9 holes 


We operated out of a port -a-john and my Suburban the first year we were open(2002)-with me running for pre-ordered deli sandwiches served on card tables outside on the range the first year we were open, and we sold out of 500k memberships.
The next 4 years we had a trailer with the basics Thomas describes and we sold out of those memberships at a much higher #.Many members at the time said that was all that was ever needed.
I still remember the time a very well known financier multibillionaire, (who $ rainmaking made often  invisible staff magically appear) came into the self serve 8x8 "locker room" and tipped another younger member $100 assuming he was staff because he was cleaning his own shoes.
My response? "Easier to just keep it" --of course that meant I had to clean the shoes...


All that said,and I generally could give a hoot about a clubhouse.....
The Bridge has a very cool clubhouse and it is highly utilized by its membership.

[Carl Rogers]

Does or should the building enhance the on course experience?

[Sean_A]

I can't imagine being anti clubhouse. Just have a clubhouse which makes sense for the intended use. I recall a guy saying a membership of 1000 needs capacity to hold 350 people in one room for AGM/EGM! I thought, wouldn't it make more sense to have capacity for 100 tops (which is about 65 if seated at a table) and if a bigger space is needed once in a while hire a hall?

I don't mind a basic, small house at all. Basic breakfast and lunch, no dinner except special occasions. Small lockeroom with a few showers, no full size lockers. Small bar with no table service. Small casual dining room, maybe seat 50. Decent size patio with heaters.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

On paper my house in Florida is big enough for any two sane people. You know where this is going.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Similar to my thoughts on the other thread, I know a multi course facility that operated out of a multi trailer clubhouse for its first five years or so.  Simple food service, and later they built a 20K SF clubhouse.  They made money out of trailers, and lost money in the clubhouse after opening the big thing.  Worse yet, they later downsized their courses by half, and it was really an albatross, in need of big repairs.


The other side of the coin is the old Robert Dedman (Club Corp founder) philosophy that the quality of the entry, parking, and clubhouse should be about on par with the course to convey the right "sense" to golfers about what the place is all about.  Many of their facilities had big clubhouses, and in the last decade, they spent millions on upgrading them and making them appeal (they hoped) to the modern mindset.  That said, I doubt he ever purposely spent money that he didn't figure he could recoup.


I wonder if a true minimalist facility would substitute trees and bushes for restrooms?  Or, serve drinks in the crapper, so guys like JK could sit a few minutes and multi-task, after the round.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've recently seen guis post conversations they overheard at their respective clubs on social media. I can't recall a time when I was under a roof and wished the room was smaller. Larger clubhouses afford the opportunity for increased privacy. The greatest modern luxury of all.

[John Kavanaugh]

Similar to my thoughts on the other thread, I know a multi course facility that operated out of a multi trailer clubhouse for its first five years or so.  Simple food service, and later they built a 20K SF clubhouse.  They made money out of trailers, and lost money in the clubhouse after opening the big thing.  Worse yet, they later downsized their courses by half, and it was really an albatross, in need of big repairs.


The other side of the coin is the old Robert Dedman (Club Corp founder) philosophy that the quality of the entry, parking, and clubhouse should be about on par with the course to convey the right "sense" to golfers about what the place is all about.  Many of their facilities had big clubhouses, and in the last decade, they spent millions on upgrading them and making them appeal (they hoped) to the modern mindset.  That said, I doubt he ever purposely spent money that he didn't figure he could recoup.


I wonder if a true minimalist facility would substitute trees and bushes for restrooms?  Or, serve drinks in the crapper, so guys like JK could sit a few minutes and multi-task, after the round.

I've seen some mighty fine crappers with lockers, a bar and poker room included.

[Tim Martin]

I still remember the time a very well known financier multibillionaire, (who $ rainmaking made often  invisible staff magically appear) came into the self serve 8x8 "locker room" and tipped another younger member $100 assuming he was staff because he was cleaning his own shoes.
My response? "Easier to just keep it" --of course that meant I had to clean the shoes...

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I do believe there is a serious question going forward in all our lives. Where can we leave our homes and feel safe to make the inevitable mistakes all humans make? Not that that is what private clubs are for.


How long do you have to be a member of a club before you can fart in the clubhouse? My wife recently told me not to fart in front of my new friends. I've let a couple go out on the course but don't feel that we are ready for confined conflagration.

[JESII]

I'd say that's good judgement

[Ira Fishman]

For me, the clubhouse is largely irrelevant. I tend to socialize primarily with the golf staff, I can grab a beer in the pro shop, and we live close enough that I do not need showers.


But I do appreciate a clubhouse that reflects the culture of a club even if it is not my style. From Brora through Woking through St. George’s Hill to Congressional. The last is definitely not my style, but it fits how the club perceives itself. The US Suburban clubhouses that seem to be clones of each other are not my cup of tea.


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm going to play tomorrow at a club where I am not a member. I love everything about that clubhouse and can't wait to show up early and stay late.

[John Kavanaugh]

For me, the clubhouse is largely irrelevant. I tend to socialize primarily with the golf staff, I can grab a beer in the pro shop, and we live close enough that I do not need showers.


But I do appreciate a clubhouse that reflects the culture of a club even if it is not my style. From Brora through Woking through St. George’s Hill to Congressional. The last is definitely not my style, but it fits how the club perceives itself. The US Suburban clubhouses that seem to be clones of each other are not my cup of tea.


Ira

Ira,


Could you please give an example of a clone and it's pair. I've never been to Friar's Head. Would it be ok in your book?

[Ira Fishman]

John, I have never had the pleasure of playing Friar’s Head. In DC area, Bethesda, Lakewood, and River Bend come to mind. In Durham/Chapel Hill, Hope Valley (our club) and Chapel Hill Country Club come to mind. All remind me a bit of Bryn Mawr in the Chicago area where my parents were members. All are very nice facilities and vary a bit in size/scale but have similar look and feel. Btw, the food at Bryn Mawr was off the chain good.


Ira

[John Kavanaugh]

These photos of Bryn Mawr look like everything I love about clubhomes. Especially an over sized porte-conchere.


https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x880fce5ecfa2c501%3A0xe3386118ee3fd8dc!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOEWZjpYvWeYHzZEShnJsG902BZiM_XKvPBiucK%3Dw426-h320-k-no!5sbryn%20mawr%20golf%20chicago%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipOEWZjpYvWeYHzZEShnJsG902BZiM_XKvPBiucK&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjE_oWKva3uAhXBU80KHT4iDg8QoiowCnoECBcQAw

[Jeff Schley]

I don't mind a basic, small house at all. Basic breakfast and lunch, no dinner except special occasions. Small lockeroom with a few showers, no full size lockers. Small bar with no table service. Small casual dining room, maybe seat 50.

Wait......... downsizing the essential luxury that are golf clubhouses? ?  You mean make golf clubhouses great again?    

or golf halfway houses.

[David Ober]

My wife and I are people who use our club. We eat there, drink there, golf there, play pickle-ball there, etc. I love a club with a nice clubhouse. But I completely agree that "less is more" when it comes to a clubhouse. Ours was grossly overbuilt and could be literally half the size it is.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you had a smaller clubhouse could you lower dues enough to attract more members?

[David Ober]

If you had a smaller clubhouse could you lower dues enough to attract more members?

Probably?


But that ship has sailed.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you had a smaller clubhouse could you lower dues enough to attract more members?

Probably?


But that ship has sailed.

Thank God, because then you would need a bigger clubhouse.

[JESII]

Kind of a cart and horse thing, don't you think John?