Has the fire burned Rustic Canyon or Lost Canyons?

[Thomas_Brown]

There are too many Tom's on this thread.
Would somebody please get off at the next stop?

I never seem to hit the fairway on #11, so I can't guess which side is better.  Usually I'm hacking out of the rough or dropping from that hazard.  That tee shot doesn't set up well for me for whatever reason.

3 other Rustic comments - I'm not sold on the entire course, but some of the shots there are really inspired IMO.
1) The tee shot at 13 really does feel like The Old Course.  Lots of room left, OB right.  Reward down the right alley.
2) The tee shot on 14 - The back tee was in use yesterday and 3 paces behind the marker.
That tee shot landing area slope and Cape angle feels like Augusta #13.  I've never played Augusta, but I went to the Masters in 1991.  The slope and the right to left flight is fantastic.  No trouble long like Augusta #13, but that's ok.
Also, they had more real estate there.  I think the tee another 15-20 yards back would make the tee shot more intimidating to carry.
3) IMO - #15 is one of the best par 3's I've played.
I know others pass on this hole.
I love the bunkering.
The hole location of back left is fantastic.
It reminds me of Muirfield hole 7, but I think it's actually a bit better.

OK - one other thought - I don't like the tee ball on #16.
Too much elevation change downward.
Moving dirt would have been appropriate there.

Tom

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, You are OUT on 11/23!

(Just joking)

How many times have you played Rustic?

[THuckaby2]

I guess my thoughts on 11 are clouded by the fact that I got a back left pin in my one playing.  I just can't see that being better attacked from the left, even with a shorter club - from the back tees it's always gonna be a long 2nd shot in, for me anyway... I only want to come from the left if I have a wedge, and that's never going to happen.

Oh well.... as I say I look forward to seeing again for myself, because if there's one thing that's certain, it's that I remain a doubting THOMAS when it comes to deciphering the best way to play great holes like this!

And you're right, someone needs to change his name here.  I'll volunteer.  My last name is more fun anyway.

Huckaby

[Thomas_Brown]

Tommy,
  Probably played there 8 or 9 times by now.
To try and keep up w/ other GCA doyens, I'm trying to become more opinionated.

The more important question is why you posted this at 4:54 am!    

BTW - The waterfall in back of 15 shows what type of visionary you are.  Trump needs some water feature work done at Ocean Trails.  I'll forward your resume to my mentor.  

Tom

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I actually didn't go to bed until way after 3:00am.

I love Trump National!

[DMoriarty]

Huckababy:

A few quick clarifications:  

1.  The only pin position you couldnt see from the tee was back left, so if you couldnt see it it was there.   Sounds like this is a non-issue now . . .

2.  When I say that it is a better angle from the left (left middle really-- in the slight swale or left of it)  I am talking about attacking the pin, trying to get a birdie putt.   It is diffucult to put in on the left side from the right (probably the middle left or the front left is harder to access from the right than the back left.)

3.  With your fade I might stay away from the left side as well, as it would entail hitting both your first and second shots out over the hazard and bringing it back for that pin.  

But you arent suggesting that golf courses be built to suit your fade, are you?  

[THuckaby2]

Davebaby:

1. I didn't know the course well enough to know how the green was... so I looked at the green and didn't see a pin at all, as I recall... sure YOU know that that means back left, and next time I will as well... So that's very cool local knowledge, which I am all for.  But not knowing where the pin was, my assumption was the hole would fit the general trend, in that tempting a hazard gave a better line in.  I'm still not sure that's true on this hole - which I think is GREAT!  You're not suggesting every hole follow some predetermined formula, are you?  

2. We're both talking about attacking the pin and getting a birdie putt, obviously.  Not doing so, playing to middle of green, it wouldn't matter where you came in from, would it?  So taking that as a given, I'll take your word for it that it's harder to get close from the right than the left... But the doubting Thomas in me really wants to see this hole again, to see exactly why.  But riddle me this:  even if it is easier to get close from the left middle as you say, isn't the margin for error greater from the right?

3. My fade is my normal shot.  But remember I did produce a draw to get to the left side.  No way I play the ball over the hazard off the tee, that would be silly.  As for 2nd, well... perhaps my shot pattern does have something to do with it, as my margin for error is going to be so much greater coming in from the right.  But I am trying to think generally, not specific to me - my bad if I am failing.

So no, holes sure as heck don't have to be designed to fit my shot pattern - what a boring old Nicklausian world it would be if they all did.    Those that require a draw do tend to give me more trouble, but that's not what this is about, or at least I'm trying to make this not what this is about.

The bottom line is I love #11, just because it has me in this quandary.  I think it is an wonderfully-designed golf hole, because it is so difficult to figure out (for me anyway), and because it has one hell of a green also, and it's very pretty in a stark way...

In any case the bottom line here is that I do think this is a fantastic golf hole - and if I prove to be correct that tempting the hazard DOESN'T give the better line in, than that just makes it BETTER in my mind.  If I'm wrong, then it's still a great hole, just because reasonable minds are differing on this.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, once again, I think with the contour of the green, it would matter where you came in from as far as getting close for a one-putt. Plus there is always the deception of how deep the green really is on that back left. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have had a come-backer of 17 feet or more, and it's a very hard putt to exactly read.

I can tell you from experience that the best time I have played that hole--and birdied it, was simply because I favored the left-side accidently. It opened up a whole new world there for me on that hole from that side. Now the problem I'm having is the same problem I have always have had, getting a drive off of that tee!

[DMoriarty]

Like other holes at rustic, it has to do with the vertical feature which runs through the green.  In this case it is the ridge which effectively splits the green into two greens.  Think of the left side as its own green (as one would have to do when hoping for a birdie.)  Then you have a green which is much deeper than it is wide.  You also have a green where the right side slopes up-- this directs balls from the left back toward the middle of the green, but could cause havoc on balls from the right.  

Even setting aside the helping slope from the right side, I generally prefer to approach greens which are deeper than wide from straight on, into the length of the green, as opposed to across it.  

Many others see it your way Tom.  But I've seen it birdied from the left/left middle much more than I have seen it birdied from the right.  

[THuckaby2]

I had a Eureka moment re this, driving to work this morning.  Hey, it's a long boring drive, what else am I gonna think about?  

The key is the ridge in the green!  OK, I know, you guys told me this many times already... But I am comparing it to the 17th at Pebble Beach... 11 RC does have sort of that "two separate greens" feature, doesn't it?

And that being the case, well... NOW I SEE IT!  It is a bit better coming from the left, because from the right it's tough to get it over that ridge, either running through or stopping it past it... and from the left it even can act as somewhat of a backstop....

So sure, if you just want on the green period, right is fine... you have a lot of green to hit at from there, and the margin of error is large... But if you want to get it close, it's easier from the left.

My imagination is just plain piss-poor sometimes... Sorry this took so long.... For whatever reason I just spaced out on that ridge.

TH

[Thomas_Brown]

I have to dissent - sort of.
I don't like the separate greens school of thought.
Rees Jones effectively did that on the 2nd hole at Torrey Pines South.  Ted Robinson does it everywhere - e.g. Wood Ranch.  Is a biarritz classify as separate - Probably.

I prefer knobs over tiers and separation.
More natural, more options.
I've had RCD on my mind lately.
Those greens have a great flow to them, which don't cause long putts to become impossible get them to 20 ft. approaches.  Yet, the putts are very hard and can have lots of movement on them.

In summary, I don't Rustic has many of these green separators.  Maybe 11 is one of those, but it's more natural than other attempts in So. Cal.  I keep comparing Hanse/Shackelford to Rees/Robinson to draw Tommy N. out.  

[THuckaby2]

Brown:

Please understand I am working off memory from last year here.  The lightbulb did go off this morning - finally, thanks to Dave and Tommy - as to why the shot from the left might be better, but I also could have this green completely wrong.  You were there recently, correct?  Is the ridge akin to 17PB, where it truly is two greens?  Would it be difficult to putt from one to the other?

If so, that still is fine by me, as it's surely not overdone at this course, and given it complicates the tee shot and approach so much, that to me is a big positive.

But you wouldn't want EVERY green like this....

TH

[Thomas_Brown]

I don't think it's like Pebble 17.
Pebble 17 is very narrow at the separation point.
RC 11 is steep, but not narrow.

As I said, I usually don't like this feature.
Particularly, #2 Torrey South.

[THuckaby2]

TB - gotcha.  That's jiving more with my memory... #11 RC has a definite ridge, but not the squeeze that you see on 17 PB.  So it's not clearly two separate green sections, as it is on 17PB, but it complicates things enough.

Re this feature in general, I tend to like it, but I do believe it can be overdone.  I don't think it is at Rustic, is it?

TH

[DMoriarty]

TB,  I dont like the seperate green theory, or the green within a green theory either.   Its just that I have had a very hard time explaining how what I call vertical features within greens alter strategic thinking from the usual 'opposite side for the best approach' mentality.   I dont really think there are any greens at rustic which play as seperate greens but the concept helps when thinking strategy on quite a few holes; 2, 4, 9, 11, 13 for example.  

TH,  did you miss my last post above?  

[THuckaby2]

Dave - I saw your post, and was very pleased to read that my eureka moment wasn't completely wrong.  

I just figured you wouldn't be here to continue to patiently answer my inane questions, so I asked Mr. B who was...

In any case, the way you assessed things this mornings jives completely with my thinking NOW - thanks for the patience - I get it now and I was way off-base before.  Sometime it takes me awhile to figure things out, bear with me.  

TH

[Andy_Lipschultz]

BTW, played at RC yesterday and the pace of play was slower than Anna Nicole Smith doing long division.

It was due mostly to the fact that it is cart path only until Dec. 3. Also, it was Veterans Day, and in honor of the day, most golfers were walking and playing like veterans--World War I veterans, that is.

Also, the hillside above the #7 tee was being shored up (netting and fencing), so the tee was closed and the hole was rendered a 225-yard par 3. Don't know if that was just for yesterday or if it is ongoing.

Quit after 9 holes.

[David Kelly]

>>>It was due mostly to the fact that it is cart path only until Dec. 3. <<<

Unless they are physically limited in some way people who still take carts when it is cart path only at Rustic should find a new hobby.

>>>>Also, the hillside above the #7 tee was being shored up (netting and fencing), so the tee was closed and the hole was rendered a 225-yard par 3. Don't know if that was just for yesterday or if it is ongoing. <<<<

On Sunday they had the netting and the fences up but the back tee  was still open.  I told my playing partner that they will probably make it a temporary par 3 hole.  Still 225 yds seems too long since there is no room to run the ball onto the green.  If the hole is playing 225 yds then it is at least a 200 yd carry.  A 200 yd BLIND carry.