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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Coore & Crenshaw
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2021, 09:18:32 PM »
I'm surprised so many people have mentioned Talking Stick North negatively, as I consider that some of their best work.  It was a very dull site and some of the holes they built are downright exceptional while still remaining relatively low-key and minimalist.


I agree, completely.


It's too easy to recognize "great architecture" on exceptional sites, and miss it at places like Talking Stick.




jeffmingay.com

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Coore & Crenshaw
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2021, 01:44:40 AM »
Through post #25


Best
Sand Hills [Ratings NA]
Friars Head [Ratings NA]
Bandon Trails


Worst
Talking Stick [O'odham North]
Talking Stick [Piipaash South]
Uni. of Notre Dame [Warren]




Kevin Pallier

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Coore & Crenshaw
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2021, 02:15:56 AM »
From a sample size of 6 OD's


Best

Sand Hills = best modern course I've seen. Magnificent routing that is an odyssey. Hope to see a 2nd course here one day. [10]
Friars Head = again the routing is spectacular with some special and unique holes [9]
Bandon Trails = I think the most underrated course on the property. Like most C&C designs I love the routing and greensites. On a 10 game split between it and Bandon Dunes I'd say 9-1 in Trails favour[8]

Worst
Of the 6 courses I've seen none are worse than a Rating of a 7. So far its been a very high bar - the other 3 being Barnbougle Lost Farm [8], Streamsong Red [8] and Hidden Creek [7].

On the Doak Scale a 7 = An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf


As such, I haven't seen a C&C course I could place in the "worst" category
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 02:41:31 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Ken Fry

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Coore & Crenshaw
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2021, 09:44:51 AM »
The C&C courses near Scottsdale provide an interesting contrast of opinions.

In general, my favorite courses provide a sense of seclusion (I like when that occasional wayward drive won't cause personal or property damage!) and a feeling of an escape.  I like to walk when I can and I really enjoy architecture that challenges and heightens the overall experience.

For me, all three courses provide a unique opportunity to walk, not something common in the desert.  We-Ko-Pa and Talking Stick represent two very different pieces of land.  I thought the playability and variety in the North Course at Talking Stick was fantastic.  There's some incredible architecture to be found throughout the course.  Honestly, the South Course was not to my tastes.  Water in the desert has never felt right to me.  We-Ko-Pa is so dramatic.  The movement of the course over that property is exhilarating although in some spots exhausting.  The architecture, challenge of the course, seclusion, vistas, all hit the mark for me.  Whenever I get to Scottsdale, my first choice is We-Ko-Pa but my second choice is Talking Stick North.  Any other accessible course in the area falls short.

As far as The Warren Course at Notre Dame goes, let me just say if that is what many believe to be one of C&C's lesser thought of courses, I hope my professional career be anywhere near that bad!

Ken

corey miller

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Re: Best & Worst Courses - by architect: Coore & Crenshaw
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2021, 04:08:54 PM »



I think I would need to read Tom's book on routing because I am having a difficult job reconciling the three great C&C routings (which may in fact still be great Sand Hills, Friar's Head, and Bandon Trails) with the reality.


Aren't they just (as Kevin claims) what most view as the three best  C&C courses without regard to routing? Are they really superior routings even relative to the C&C portfolio?


Sand Hills had how many permutations and potential routings? 


In contrast, Friar's Head had only a few ways in which to move from through the dunes so in the context of C&C and their philosophy isn't that a better routing in that they produced a top course with fewer choices available?


As for Bandon Trials, I am having a hard time understanding the genius of a routing that requires a cart ride up and over to play what many think the most controversial (in a negative vein) hole on the course.   

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