Next steps for that course in the South East Bronx.

[Robert West]

Would this thread be entirely different if the OP ( Original  Poster ) omitted " Trump"  and " Takeover" from the caption ?  I would have put it like this :


Ferry Point News  and posted the Geoff Shackelford link.

Yes Steve, I realized just this when I checked in on the thread after work. Certainly not the type of spirited debate I expected in this forum. I have negative feelings about the the man but I wasn't attempting to discuss them here. The course is beautiful but a lot of my golf friends and fam outright refuse to come play it. I think it's the combination of Trump and the high greens fee. I've played it only once as it is really not convenient for me, but it is far and away the best course within the city. It's certainly the most well maintained with the best greens and its resort-course tuning makes it easy to have a fun round. It is a high quality venue. I wish they had hired a more modern architect (cough cough TOM...) but in this city, beggars can't be choosers.

As a NYC native I asked this question to learn what companies get called in a situation like this. I grew up blocks from Vannie and now I live close to Dyker and American Golf is not exactly well regarded by a lot of locals. And don't even mention AG around Marine Park, they will step on your ball.

I have had great experiences at Troon courses I've played (Seaview is fantastic down in AC), so I am hoping a high quality manager/vendor will be used if this contract dissolution actually takes place.

I suppose there are not many places the civic divide doesn't rear it's ugly head. I was really just trying to ask opinions on what the ideal next step might be for the course. I know a lot of people, including myself would like to splurge a bit and get a sub-6-hour round in from time to time...

[Tim Martin]

Although this thread seems to have been started with innocent intentions I believe the discourse will follow the original which has been taken down by the moderators as an untoward embarrassment to the site and the lion’s share of its posters.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am guilty of WAY too much opinion on that last thread and for that...Please accept my apology, all. I AM sorry.


Let me keep it simple and to the topic:


- I think the Name of that course in NY will be removed and another operator will be found. I hope it's Kemper Sports.
- As for other courses that also bare that 5 letter name: the private courses will keep going as there is captive revenue and the scent of the name already defines the culture and membership. (Even though I will heretofore refer to them all as "Douche-Trap Nationals"... [size=78%])[/size]
- Doral, Doonbeg, Turnberry and Aberdeen: since they are all newer (to Mr T) and hence years away from profitability and will NEVER host a major, TTO will sell those to raise cash for debt service, consolidation and a pivot to deals overseas and in more friendly environs to the now well-defined (POS) brand of this person.

[Tim Martin]

I am guilty of WAY too much opinion on that last thread and for that...Please accept my apology, all. I AM sorry.


Let me keep it simple and to the topic:


- I think the Name of that course in NY will be removed and another operator will be found. I hope it's Kemper Sports.
- As for other courses that also bare that 5 letter name: the private courses will keep going as there is captive revenue and the scent of the name already defines the culture and membership. (Even though I will heretofore refer to them all as "Douche-Trap Nationals"... [size=78%])[/size]
- Doral, Doonbeg, Turnberry and Aberdeen: since they are all newer (to Mr T) and hence years away from profitability and will NEVER host a major, TTO will sell those to raise cash for debt service, consolidation and a pivot to deals overseas and in more friendly environs to the now well-defined (POS) brand of this person.



Did you forget about your first paragraph before penning your third?

[Robert West]

I am guilty of WAY too much opinion on that last thread and for that...Please accept my apology, all. I AM sorry.


Let me keep it simple and to the topic:


- I think the Name of that course in NY will be removed and another operator will be found. I hope it's Kemper Sports.
- As for other courses that also bare that 5 letter name: the private courses will keep going as there is captive revenue and the scent of the name already defines the culture and membership. (Even though I will heretofore refer to them all as "Douche-Trap Nationals"... [size=78%])[/size]
- Doral, Doonbeg, Turnberry and Aberdeen: since they are all newer (to Mr T) and hence years away from profitability and will NEVER host a major, TTO will sell those to raise cash for debt service, consolidation and a pivot to deals overseas and in more friendly environs to the now well-defined (POS) brand of this person.

Ok this is what I was looking for. Thanks. Kemper sports seems to run a few decent spots over in Jersey. I think I have more experiences with the local Troon courses but hey as long as there is a commitment to quality that can be maintained.
I'm not sure the legality of Mayor Billy just deciding to end a contract but if it does happen it would be good if it doesn't get ignored or forgotten during this tough time.

I would have to imagine the courses in Scotland will be sold as well. Didn't he not finance them or something? Like there was a surprisingly little amount of debt taken out by him to purchase Turnberry or something? I try to not pay attention to a lot of the shenanigans but I read somewhere that there were a lot of unknowns behind his Scottish dealings and where the cash was coming from. Now that they have been downgraded from the rotation, I can't imagine he's going to keep these 'merely everyday'  courses for very long.

[Mark Fedeli]

I've played it only once as it is really not convenient for me, but it is far and away the best course within the city. It's certainly the most well maintained with the best greens and its resort-course tuning makes it easy to have a fun round.

One quibble: Marine Park has the best greens in the city. They’re more challenging, more fun, and in plenty good enough condition.

[Robert West]

I've played it only once as it is really not convenient for me, but it is far and away the best course within the city. It's certainly the most well maintained with the best greens and its resort-course tuning makes it easy to have a fun round.

One quibble: Marine Park has the best greens in the city. They’re more challenging, more fun, and in plenty good enough condition.

Marine is my favorite City course for sure. My love to Marine Park and the dudes that run that place know no bounds, but let's be serious... The first green is always a wreck. The Trent Jones boomerang U shaped looking greens are fun once or twice but not exactly the height of architectural prowess. They do a great great job with the course overall so no disrespect to them. Since they took over and built up those berms it really is a 110% improvement over the old stagnant goose-shit mud-pile that was there for decades prior.

I think typically the classic NYC courses with the most consistent greens for speed and rolling true are at Mosholu. I think it changes year to year. MP is very exposed so rain and wind can really wreck havoc during a wet season. In 2020 the best greens I played in the city were at La Tourette by a MILE. It was pock-mark free, firm... Really something to behold. My experiences there had never been memorable until this year... fun fun. Also, Pelham has beautiful complexes that can be damn fun to play (though I suppose it is a 'beginner's course).

If/When I get up to Ferry Point again I'll take a serious look and see how they compare to Marine, but my experience was that they were very very true compared to what I'm used to seeing in these parts.
Good to see some Fellow NYC Golfers on here playing the local tracks though. Our city has some decent golf history, it's just been ignored, built over, ruined by long play and been stuck as an afterthought on most leaders agendas. Here's hoping FP can become a little more... accessible(? I can't find the right word) going forward.

Cheers.

[Mark Fedeli]

I guess I'll give my pitch. The condition of the MP greens can sometimes be hit or miss just because of the sheer amount of play, but there are times during the year when those greens are in very good condition by any standard — that's what they're known for. They're also exactly the kind of greens we should be championing: they're full of quirk and personality, much of it unintended. There are subtle to severe features that only time could've built, like the "butt crack" that runs down the middle-front of 10. That little canal is devilish and helps make that green one of the most difficult two-putts on the course. In fact, without being comically over-the-top, most of the greens are difficult two-putts with tons of slope and frustratingly imperceptible movement even on the few so-called flatter greens, all adding up to protect the course valiantly from its benign fairways.


You mention the boomerang, which was softened in recent years, sadly, but so many greens at Ferry Point have a bunker in the middle-front. I find many of the approaches and green sites there quite boring and standard issue. Conditioning is fantastic, though, and allows it to play fast and firm. So I definitely agree there. I've played nearly all the city courses and play MP quite often, especially in the off-season, and I always find the greens to be a pure joy, as fun and fearsome as any other public greens in the region. They're what's kept me coming back for almost 15 years now.

[Peter Gannon]

Totally agree with Mark about the greens at Marine Park.  The terrain is flat, and fairly dull, but you have to miss in the right places.  The greens are the challenge. I also find MP's greens in surprisingly good shape with the amount of play it gets.  I've played there before the newer ownership, and it has come a long way.  Hats off.  It's not a top choice for me, but I'm never unhappy to play there.


As far as Ferry Point, it's going to be an uphill effort to find sympathy from the city at large, and I totally get that.  But, it would be a shame to let it go, or not give it a chance to thrive.  Kemper would be an amazing next move, but from what I've seen they seem to take on places with a bit more soul. 


All things considered; the course, the intent of attracting a Tour event, high budget for maintenance, a model seems TPC Harding Park.  Affordable-ish for residents, but hyper premium for out of city residents.  With the right management, it could correct a lot of things it has not been so far; inviting, inclusive, fun, affordable for NYC residents.  We'll see where it goes, but if it's Troon, that could be fine. 


The past is the past, but hoping for it's success moving forward. 

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I've played it only once as it is really not convenient for me, but it is far and away the best course within the city. It's certainly the most well maintained with the best greens and its resort-course tuning makes it easy to have a fun round.

One quibble: Marine Park has the best greens in the city. They’re more challenging, more fun, and in plenty good enough condition.

Marine is my favorite City course for sure. My love to Marine Park and the dudes that run that place know no bounds, but let's be serious... The first green is always a wreck. The Trent Jones boomerang U shaped looking greens are fun once or twice but not exactly the height of architectural prowess. They do a great great job with the course overall so no disrespect to them. Since they took over and built up those berms it really is a 110% improvement over the old stagnant goose-shit mud-pile that was there for decades prior.

I think typically the classic NYC courses with the most consistent greens for speed and rolling true are at Mosholu. I think it changes year to year. MP is very exposed so rain and wind can really wreck havoc during a wet season. In 2020 the best greens I played in the city were at La Tourette by a MILE. It was pock-mark free, firm... Really something to behold. My experiences there had never been memorable until this year... fun fun. Also, Pelham has beautiful complexes that can be damn fun to play (though I suppose it is a 'beginner's course).

If/When I get up to Ferry Point again I'll take a serious look and see how they compare to Marine, but my experience was that they were very very true compared to what I'm used to seeing in these parts.
Good to see some Fellow NYC Golfers on here playing the local tracks though. Our city has some decent golf history, it's just been ignored, built over, ruined by long play and been stuck as an afterthought on most leaders agendas. Here's hoping FP can become a little more... accessible(? I can't find the right word) going forward.

Cheers.

For those logging into this thread interested in New York City golf: it's underrated.
I would argue that Douglaston has the best architecture- the front 9 is fantastic, and the back has some great stretches, concluding with a great par 5. The greens are good all year long.


Check out Pelham and Split Rock for legit big scale, raw and rugged golf.


Ferry Point is a high end daily fee. That's not NYC golf. A shame that project went the way it did-- 'coulda been a contenda'

[SB]

One important point about the contracts in NYC is that they are concessions, not management contracts.  The operator takes financial risk with a guaranteed payments to the city.  Many management companies do not operate in that manner.  They want to get paid whether the course makes $500K or loses $500K.  There used to be a number of companies that would lease courses, but they all got destroyed in the '00's.  Troon has not traditionally taken any risk.  Kemper used to, I don't know if they do lately.  It will be interesting to see what NYC does, my guess is that it will be tied up in the courts for the foreseeable future.


One point about hosting an event:  it's always been important to the City.  I worked for AGC when it was getting off the ground, and we bid on the deal a number of times.  The word came straight from Giuliani that hosting an event was critical to the deal.

[Robert West]

[quote author=Peter Gannon link=topic=69273.msg1663699#msg1663699 date=1611027266

All things considered; the course, the intent of attracting a Tour event, high budget for maintenance, a model seems TPC Harding Park.  Affordable-ish for residents, but hyper premium for out of city residents.  With the right management, it could correct a lot of things it has not been so far; inviting, inclusive, fun, affordable for NYC residents.  We'll see where it goes, but if it's Troon, that could be fine. 

 A TPC venue would be amazing in the city. As a Bronx native I think showing such an optimistic view is going to be needed. Attitudes like this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/nyregion/trump-golf-course-ferry-point-bronx.html are pervasive and she doesn't even name Marine Park when she brings it up.  Make it 'green' or maybe build a First Tee center like they have down in Dyker... Perhaps drop the fees to something that isn't 100+% more than Bethpage Black less than an hour away?
Dare to dream.