How is Mid Pines not considered the best golf course in the Sandhills???????

[Tim Martin]

Tim

Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though  ). Otherwise, I am not interested.  That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway.

Happy Hockey

Sean-It’s not very hard to access especially as they try to attract members to the “Dormie Network”.

[Sean_A]

Tim

Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though  ). Otherwise, I am not interested.  That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway.

Happy Hockey

Sean-It’s not very hard to access especially as they try to attract members to the “Dormie Network”.

Hopefully you are right. But I wouldn't contemplate trying to access a course as a potential member when I know this clearly isn't the case for me. And..I am not suggesting that is what you are suggesting 


Happy Hockey

[Ira Fishman]

I have played MP and PN around 10 times each, PH2 twice, and PH4 and 8 once each. MP and PN are among my very favorite courses. I listed them as the first ones I could play every day as well as answering Zac Blair’s question about great golf experiences. Like several previous posters, I enjoy the two course about equally.


However, when it comes to “Best” v “Favorite”, I use a heuristic to define Best: how both mentally exhilarated and exhausted am I at the end of a round. Exhilaration captures overall enjoyment (fun, beauty, pacing, and the like); exhaustion captures overall quality (layout, overall quality of the holes, strategic imperatives, and challenges presented). For me, the “Best” courses balance the two.


By my measure, PH2 is one of the Best courses that I have ever played. In the Sandhills, MP would be next because as Jay notes, it does provide more of what I call the mental exhaustion factor than PN. PH4 did not score particularly high on either part of my scale.


I do look forward to trying SP, Dormie, and TR at some point.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

Tim

Yes, I would like to see Dormie again if the walk is sorted. There is a lot of cool stuff there, much more design variety than MP or PN (some of it questionable though  ). Otherwise, I am not interested.  That said, they have gone quite private no? I probably can't play it anyway.

Happy Hockey

Sean-It’s not very hard to access especially as they try to attract members to the “Dormie Network”.

Hopefully you are right. But I wouldn't contemplate trying to access a course as a potential member when I know this clearly isn't the case for me. And..I am not suggesting that is what you are suggesting 


Happy Hockey

That’s quite a leap. I think I’ll bow out.

[Bernie Bell]

Could a resident member actually play MP/PN (almost) every day if he was so inclined, or would the tee sheet be jammed?  And if not, what would be the better "every day" courses that one could actually play every day?

[Matt MacIver]

I thought MP was the best course (for me; overall?) before the renovation and do so now, too. It’s the only course in the area, aside from T-Road, that I’d want to run back out for another round, mostly due to the varying shots I see that can be played - maybe Dormie has some too.


#2 and now #4 are great but in my mind one dimensional, and of course hard: #4 has a higher slope from the 6500 tees than #2.  Sure if you miss the green where the grass is you have a few options, but invariably the other  side has a hard-pan bunker, good luck 15HC.


#2 lacks any elevation change aside from two holes vs all the others mentioned, guess the elevated greens make up for it but meh.


MP is a bit too narrow relative to the others mentioned above for my liking. Look forward to seeing renovated SP. 

[Jay Mickle]

Could a resident member actually play MP/PN (almost) every day if he was so inclined, or would the tee sheet be jammed?  And if not, what would be the better "every day" courses that one could actually play every day?

I can play almost every day with just 2 courses, now with the addition of Southern Pines there is a third option. Within a week I can usually get a tee time but with large groups and tournaments I have been shut out. Access has been more and more limited as popularity has grown.
I live 2 miles from the course and my favorite time to play is late in the day so I go out in the waning hours after tee times.

[PCCraig]

As for #2 -- I've never played #2, so I can't opine on it. My father has played it several times, however, both before and after the C&C work. While he agrees that it's a great golf course, he says it's just too hard to really enjoy. He would much rather play Mid Pines or Pine Needles than #2 even if the price was the same. For context, he's roughly a 9 handicap now (in his 70s), but he used to be a 4/5.

What struck me last week is how all the different PCC members I talked to say they hardly ever play #2. I think one said he hadn't played it in 7 years.


On the flip side, it appears that almost everyone enjoys playing the golf course at Mid Pines. From listening to interviews with Kyle Franz there was a time that Mid Pines was considered one of the best courses in the country. What changed? Certainly the design and its greens remain. The set of greens in particular are amazingly interesting and fun.


But then why does everyone assume that #2 is the de facto "best" golf course in the area? Is it its championship pedigree? Is its challenge the primary appeal?

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Doak -

It was described to me last week that the ideal strategy for high quality golfers to score at #2 is to aim to hit the middle of every green and putt from there.

If that is the ideal strategy at #2 then...?

Actually no.  It is the best strategy at most courses to aim at the middle of every green and putt from there.  That's what pros do most of the time, until they find a hole location that fits their eye to attack.  So then . . . ? 


At #2, by contrast, it is the safest strategy to aim for the very front of every green to avoid having to chip and pitch onto the dome from either side -- just like Ian Andrew's dad taught him.  It won't win you first place, but you won't embarrass yourself and you'll probably do better than a lot of the guys playing for the middle.  It rewards the guy who keeps it straight, even if he's a short hitter, over the guy who misses wide.  Ballybunion is another course that does the same.

Tom,


I played Pinehurst #2 several times many years ago. While I don’t recall employing the strategy you describe on every hole, I did very quickly decide that was the way to play the 5th hole. If I had a yardage between clubs I always went with the shorter club and found being right in front a good play. It was kind of a lay up, but effective in avoiding a big score. A bogey wasn’t bad on that hole if I couldn’t get up and down from just off the front.

[Jay Mickle]

#2 by virtue of its pedigree as a hickory course has always been available for the ground game and therefore good interest to all levels of golfer. The greens, length, bunkering, waste areas, angles etc make it a course for the very top golfers. Few courses can make golf so good for so many with such facility. As a 15 handicap # 2 plays as a reasonable bogey course. For lower handicaps par becomes the challenge. From the tips the + handicappers birdies are hard to find.
I throughly enjoy and appreciate the greatness of #2 after many plays but have never walked off wanting to go back to the first tee.

[Brock Lynch]

What struck me last week is how all the different PCC members I talked to say they hardly ever play #2. I think one said he hadn't played it in 7 years.

PCCraig,


There are in the neighborhood of 1,500 members at Pinehurst CC. It is possible you did not talk to any of the great majority that play #2 whenever they can. Whatever tee times that are not taken by resort guests are filled by members every day, weather permitting. The more I play #2, the more I want to play it again the next day. #2 is a very challenging golf course. The green complexes are difficult and will punish the mediocre approach. Some will find #2 too difficult to play on a regular basis and will play at the many other options at the club. Others don't play #2 because there are no carts allowed on the fairways. Some find it too difficult to get times on #2 and don't want the hassle and will opt to play the other options at the club. However, most members joined in part so they can play #2 on a regular basis. I find it very hard to believe that the typical member "hardly ever plays" #2.


As for Mid Pines, I love playing there. I've played it several times and like playing it very much. There are quite a few very good holes and the lay of the land adds to the interest. I would never say Mid Pines is not good...it's just not as good as Pinehurst #2.

[Jerry Kluger]

I played Mid Pines a couple of weeks ago and I certainly like the course a whole lot but I wasn't thrilled with the over seed - felt soggy and the grass wasn't thick enough so the ball was sitting down.  The greens were amazingly fast and I knew we were in trouble when I believe it was the 3rd hole where the pin was in the front left and we had 3 four putts and one 3 putt. 

[Jay Mickle]

I played Mid Pines a couple of weeks ago and I certainly like the course a whole lot but I wasn't thrilled with the over seed - felt soggy and the grass wasn't thick enough so the ball was sitting down.  The greens were amazingly fast and I knew we were in trouble when I believe it was the 3rd hole where the pin was in the front left and we had 3 four putts and one 3 putt.

All of the best fairways in the Sandhills don’t overseed. Healthy dormant Bermuda is a fantastic surface. Even after almost 5 inches of rain last week MP was still watering the next day. Luckily it is the Sandhills or “soft and soggy”  can dry enough to be reasonably playable if not ideal. PN is dormant Bermuda and after heavy rains I will venture across the street.

[A.G._Crockett]

I played Mid Pines a couple of weeks ago and I certainly like the course a whole lot but I wasn't thrilled with the over seed - felt soggy and the grass wasn't thick enough so the ball was sitting down.  The greens were amazingly fast and I knew we were in trouble when I believe it was the 3rd hole where the pin was in the front left and we had 3 four putts and one 3 putt.

All of the best fairways in the Sandhills don’t overseed. Healthy dormant Bermuda is a fantastic surface. Even after almost 5 inches of rain last week MP was still watering the next day. Luckily it is the Sandhills or “soft and soggy”  can dry enough to be reasonably playable if not ideal. PN is dormant Bermuda and after heavy rains I will venture across the street.

Jay,

I came down to Pine Needles from Chapel Hill on Thursday; it always catches me by surprise when I get to the Sandhills at how dry things are.  Balls were bouncing and rolling, carts were on the fairways, and the lies were great; no mud on the ball.  I walked with my push cart, and it was wonderful not to be slogging thru the mud. 

[JC Jones]

Because it isn’t the best?


Why not just bump BCowan’s thread from years ago saying the same thing.  The one in which I’m pretty sure he gave it a 9.


Nevertheless, as his claim did years ago, this one does the same; it says more about the depth and the acumen of the one making the claim than it does about whether Mid Pines could ever be considered the best course in the Sandhills.


Charming?  Yes.  Fun to play?  Yes


Top 5 in the area?  Not a chance.  A definitely can’t hold a candle to a top 10 course in the US.

[Tim Martin]

Because it isn’t the best?


Why not just bump BCowan’s thread from years ago saying the same thing.  The one in which I’m pretty sure he gave it a 9.


Nevertheless, as his claim did years ago, this one does the same; it says more about the depth and the acumen of the one making the claim than it does about whether Mid Pines could ever be considered the best course in the Sandhills.


Charming?  Yes.  Fun to play?  Yes


Top 5 in the area?  Not a chance.  A definitely can’t hold a candle to a top 10 course in the US.

Jason-I am interested in your take and wonder what five courses you have at the top? My guess is that three of the five from your perspective would include # 2, Dormie and Southern Pines. Thanks.

[JC Jones]

TMart,


In no particular order this morning save for #2 being clear #1:


#2
#4
Dormie
Pine Needles
Tobacco Road


Southern Pines and #8 would be above it as well.  I’ve yet to play CCofNC Dogwood but all reports are it is wonderful.

[PCCraig]

TMart,


In no particular order this morning save for #2 being clear #1:


#2
#4
Dormie
Pine Needles
Tobacco Road


Southern Pines and #8 would be above it as well.  I’ve yet to play CCofNC Dogwood but all reports are it is wonderful.

#4? Really?

[Craig Disher]

The putting surfaces on #4 have been overlooked here. They are at least the equal of any in the area, perhaps better than Dormie Club's which I've always admired. What makes the course less than great is the man-made lake stuck right in the middle of the property which destroyed some of the best ground contours that Ross used for both early versions of #2 and #4.

As Jay and others have pointed out, the major problem that confronts MP is the soggy condition of so many fairways. The overseeding seems pointless given the great conditions at the other courses that don't use it. I'm looking forward to see what May/June brings when the course has firmed up, hopefully.
Southern Pines has conditioning shortcomings as everyone who's played there realizes. That can be solved but another issue is the greens, about half of which could be Ross originals and the other half coming from a rebuild in the 1980s. I don't see how SP could ever be considered one of the top-tier courses in the area unless they are replaced.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Tobacco Road

I don’t understand the Tobacco Road love. It’s a good course. Very good. Not great.

Mid Pines is better than #4 and definitely better than TR, IMO.

[Tim Martin]

Tobacco Road

I don’t understand the Tobacco Road love. It’s a good course. Very good. Not great.

It is a polarizing course for sure. Everybody has a strong opinion one way or the other.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It is a polarizing course for sure. Everybody has a strong opinion one way or the other.

Nothing about my opinion on TR is “strong” and I’m not “polar” at all. I don’t hate the course. I don’t love the course. I think it’s “quite good” (between good and very good?), and I also think most people seem to over-rate it.

[Tim Martin]

It is a polarizing course for sure. Everybody has a strong opinion one way or the other.

Nothing about my opinion on TR is “strong” and I’m not “polar” at all. I don’t hate the course. I don’t love the course. I think it’s “quite good” (between good and very good?), and I also think most people seem to over-rate it.

Fore

[William_G]

because it isn't, LOL


all these courses through the pines is somewhat redundant to someone on the west coast

[Mike Sweeney]

I have not played enough in the Sandhills area to weigh in on "the best" conversations, but I loved my round during Thanksgiving week:



Someday I will go back with my son and play #2, but at $85 and limited time, Mid Pines was certainly a great value. I also love the quieter vibe over at Mid Pines and Pine Needles. It reminded me of Mountain Lake back when we had a bunch of GCA guys there. Now that they have acquired Southern Pines, that is a great trio.