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Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2021, 08:48:18 AM »
We'll have to agree to disagree about golf balls and baseballs.  Golf and baseball are just not analogous, either in terms of bifurcation, or what each sport depends on for economic health.  In any case, the simple fact is that the hardest, fastest baseballs are used at the highest level, which is the exact reverse of what would happen in golf. 


I'm not saying it's a 1:1 analogy, but from the perspective of the USGA/R&A there is a lot to learn for why baseball uses a wide range of ball constructions across its various levels of play and what impact that may have on performance vs. casual play vs. spectating.


Baseball is not the only sport that uses a wide range of playing balls across multiple levels of play. Really I'd imagine golf is unusual that there are no specification differences between competition levels. For every sport in which a ball change is made it is not dwelled upon by the masses, so why should we expect it to be a bother in golf?




Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2021, 08:57:48 AM »
When does the scratch golfer have to start playing the tournament ball for competition?
How *does* a scratch golfer become a scratch golfer is their handicap is based off one ball and not the other?
+1 ... and furthermore would a low hcp amateur have to have two handicaps, one for each type of ball permitted in different kinds of event?
atb

Listen, the handicap system is already so convoluted that the issues you raise are non issues. It would be dead easy for clubs to have equipment rollback categories. I suspect that when guys fancy themselves they could make the switch. What I find interesting is that I wonder how many obviously no chance to become elite players go for the rollback. I would certainly want golfers of all abilities to have the choice. These guys obviously wouldn't be nearly as concerned about handicaps as they are about how they believe the game should be played.

Happy Hockey


It may be convoluted for you, a self-avowed eschewer of card and pencil golf. If you aren't concerned with your handicap there is already a market of non-conforming equipment for you to use now. How come nobody does?

It works, and does so quite well, for many others.

I don't understand your point part of which is incorrect.

In any case, are you saying there is no possible way to handicap for non elite golfers which use two different sets of equipment?

Happy Hockey


"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the ever-expanding needs of the bureaucracy."


So, it's already convoluted (not really) so it can afford to be more convoluted?

I am sure there is a way but since the attempts at equitable handicapping have already turned the actual *play* of golf into a controlled experiment why add a new variable that would require a different control?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2021, 10:12:40 AM »
When does the scratch golfer have to start playing the tournament ball for competition?
How *does* a scratch golfer become a scratch golfer is their handicap is based off one ball and not the other?
+1 ... and furthermore would a low hcp amateur have to have two handicaps, one for each type of ball permitted in different kinds of event?
atb

Listen, the handicap system is already so convoluted that the issues you raise are non issues. It would be dead easy for clubs to have equipment rollback categories. I suspect that when guys fancy themselves they could make the switch. What I find interesting is that I wonder how many obviously no chance to become elite players go for the rollback. I would certainly want golfers of all abilities to have the choice. These guys obviously wouldn't be nearly as concerned about handicaps as they are about how they believe the game should be played.

Happy Hockey


It may be convoluted for you, a self-avowed eschewer of card and pencil golf. If you aren't concerned with your handicap there is already a market of non-conforming equipment for you to use now. How come nobody does?

It works, and does so quite well, for many others.

I don't understand your point part of which is incorrect.

In any case, are you saying there is no possible way to handicap for non elite golfers which use two different sets of equipment?

Happy Hockey


"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the ever-expanding needs of the bureaucracy."


So, it's already convoluted (not really) so it can afford to be more convoluted?

I am sure there is a way but since the attempts at equitable handicapping have already turned the actual *play* of golf into a controlled experiment why add a new variable that would require a different control?

To honest, I am not that fussed about equipment rollback either way. But I certainly don't buy that the handicap system can't accommodate a rollback. That is an awful reason to dismiss the idea of a rollback.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2021, 10:56:38 AM »
To honest, I am not that fussed about equipment rollback either way. But I certainly don't buy that the handicap system can't accommodate a rollback. That is an awful reason to dismiss the idea of a rollback.
Happy Hockey
The handicap system ought to be able to accommodating a rollback pretty easily. The ease with which the handicap system can accommodate bifurcation is another matter.
Atb

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2021, 10:58:52 AM »
To honest, I am not that fussed about equipment rollback either way. But I certainly don't buy that the handicap system can't accommodate a rollback. That is an awful reason to dismiss the idea of a rollback.
Happy Hockey
The handicap system ought to be able to accommodating a rollback pretty easily. The ease with which the handicap system can accommodate bifurcation is another matter.
Atb


Exactly.

My order of preference is:

1: Rollback
2: Do Nothing
3 - 16,000: Etc.
16,001: Bifurcation
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2021, 11:09:18 AM »
The term ‘rollback’ likely doesn’t do the potential process any favours.
I’ve seen the phrase ‘re-calibration’ used elsewhere.
Maybe ‘re-calibration’ better describes the intent?
Atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2021, 01:32:17 PM »
To honest, I am not that fussed about equipment rollback either way. But I certainly don't buy that the handicap system can't accommodate a rollback. That is an awful reason to dismiss the idea of a rollback.
Happy Hockey
The handicap system ought to be able to accommodating a rollback pretty easily. The ease with which the handicap system can accommodate bifurcation is another matter.
Atb
I don't think so. The system is built on assumed numbers and formulas. Why can't these assumptions include bifurcation? You guys are simply looking for ways to poo poo the idea without it being properly vetted.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2021, 02:11:31 PM »
To honest, I am not that fussed about equipment rollback either way. But I certainly don't buy that the handicap system can't accommodate a rollback. That is an awful reason to dismiss the idea of a rollback.
Happy Hockey
The handicap system ought to be able to accommodating a rollback pretty easily. The ease with which the handicap system can accommodate bifurcation is another matter.
Atb
I don't think so. The system is built on assumed numbers and formulas. Why can't these assumptions include bifurcation? You guys are simply looking for ways to poo poo the idea without it being properly vetted.

Happy Hockey


I agree that it would probably be fairly easy.  When you login to the GHIN app, you select course, date, tees.  I think there could be one more toggle switch to select the ball played.  I don't know if it makes more sense for a player to have two handicaps or to figure out how to adjust course ratings and slope to account for a different ball, but it seems like something you could work out.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2021, 04:02:18 PM »
When I play with pre-1935 equipment, I post into a separate system.  That generates a separate handicap.  That makes more sense to me than trying to adjust into one overall handicap. 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2021, 04:04:04 PM »
Interesting, the different directions this thread has gone.


For those of you who feel the ball is the singular culprit in the distances the TV guys hit the ball, how do you explain BDC's 30 yards (10%) increase over the last 3 years?


Surely he is the most extreme example of optimizing for distance, but it sure isn't the ball.






I am one of those vehemently opposed to bifurcation. I would be fine with a flat roll-back but nobody can ever convince me it's necessary. FWIW, I agree with Mike Clayton's premise that bifurcation by rolling back the elite players will ultimately result in everyone adopting that same equipment because we all want to play the "best" stuff.


Safety, Cost, Environmental, Time...all have some merit but all are still back in the hands of the players and clubs themselves. Why should the regulatory bodies mandate something in hopes of a desired outcome when that outcome isn't actually guaranteed, or even in their hands anyway.




Earlier I asked Sean Arble about forced bifurcations in the game today. May not have been fair since he only referred to defacto bifurcations but Jeff Warne and Kalen Braley (and maybe others) nominated a few answers...none of which are actually forced. They are no different than me playing the game at 7:00am in Philadelphia and someone else playing at 1:30 pm in Melbourne. They are purely circumstantial...as in, driven by the specific circumstances around that day.




Oh, and about 1% of the golf in the US (more in GB/I and Aus) is played at medal play with handicap so figuring out a handicap for different levels of equipment would be easy..."oh, you're playing with hickories today, great, I'll give you an extra two a side. Sound good?"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2021, 04:41:14 PM »
 8)

Interesting article and charts on robo ball testing from a year ago...  seems like always, it's not the arrow, its the indian!

https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/features/equipment-features/2019/september/robot-tested-which-golf-bal-suits-my-game/#the%20numbers[/font]
[/font]
Distance & dispersion chart link[/font]
https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/PageFiles/1104466/CarryvDispersion.png[/font]
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2021, 05:59:47 PM »
Interesting, the different directions this thread has gone.


For those of you who feel the ball is the singular culprit in the distances the TV guys hit the ball, how do you explain BDC's 30 yards (10%) increase over the last 3 years?


Surely he is the most extreme example of optimizing for distance, but it sure isn't the ball.






I am one of those vehemently opposed to bifurcation. I would be fine with a flat roll-back but nobody can ever convince me it's necessary. FWIW, I agree with Mike Clayton's premise that bifurcation by rolling back the elite players will ultimately result in everyone adopting that same equipment because we all want to play the "best" stuff.


Safety, Cost, Environmental, Time...all have some merit but all are still back in the hands of the players and clubs themselves. Why should the regulatory bodies mandate something in hopes of a desired outcome when that outcome isn't actually guaranteed, or even in their hands anyway.




Earlier I asked Sean Arble about forced bifurcations in the game today. May not have been fair since he only referred to defacto bifurcations but Jeff Warne and Kalen Braley (and maybe others) nominated a few answers...none of which are actually forced. They are no different than me playing the game at 7:00am in Philadelphia and someone else playing at 1:30 pm in Melbourne. They are purely circumstantial...as in, driven by the specific circumstances around that day.




Oh, and about 1% of the golf in the US (more in GB/I and Aus) is played at medal play with handicap so figuring out a handicap for different levels of equipment would be easy..."oh, you're playing with hickories today, great, I'll give you an extra two a side. Sound good?"


So I can play in a US Open Local Qualifier as a 5.2 with hickories?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2021, 06:01:57 PM »
Nope...but I’ll give you two a side

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2021, 09:35:44 PM »
Nope...but I’ll give you two a side


I mentioned this years ago in a similar thread,but...
I still like the idea of having different kinds of balls that go specific %s of distance.
So I play a match at a classic course with A touring pro who plays an 85% and I play a 100%er.


A woman plays 100%, I play her tees with a 60%er-we zip around in 2 hours.
I've simulated this by playing with a woman using her exact club selection and her speed with a normal ball(negating height and spin)


We all play the same course(whatever tees we choose-and adjust balls)-more social-perhaps more strategy as courses played at 60% power become wider, yet may require better angles.


Dads play with sons-same tees-different balls.
later in life-reverse.
There are enough tees in existence to accommodate this without ever building another new tee.
Or growing more rough, or an other silly idea that misses the point.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #89 on: January 13, 2021, 03:48:53 AM »
I mentioned this years ago in a similar thread,but...
I still like the idea of having different kinds of balls that go specific %s of distance.
So I play a match at a classic course with A touring pro who plays an 85% and I play a 100%er.
A woman plays 100%, I play her tees with a 60%er-we zip around in 2 hours.
I've simulated this by playing with a woman using her exact club selection and her speed with a normal ball(negating height and spin)
We all play the same course(whatever tees we choose-and adjust balls)-more social-perhaps more strategy as courses played at 60% power become wider, yet may require better angles.
Dads play with sons-same tees-different balls.
later in life-reverse.
There are enough tees in existence to accommodate this without ever building another new tee.
Or growing more rough, or an other silly idea that misses the point.
Thread started by Tony M Jan 2006 ..... a mere 15 years ago ...... how times change (or not) .... :)
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21535.0.html
and
a not dissimilar one started by me from 2016, just 5 years ago this time.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63366.msg1508527.html#msg1508527
I imagine there have been others.
Interesting to read folks thoughts as they were a few years ago.
atb


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