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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2021, 08:04:46 PM »
The USGA should have just been a protector of the game and had no relationship with manufacturers.
Why is it that nobody ever really seems to tag the R&A? They’re in this, too.

I get your point on “plain in shape” but I think they’d have needed some awfully fine lawyers had they really pushed that one. Possibly.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2021, 07:04:24 AM »
So much about pro golf is essentially bifurcated that I don't see why the equipment can't also be.

BTW, I agree with Brandel about longer height fairway grass. Nothing to do with pro golfers, it just makes sense not to unnecessarily stress fairways for handicap golfers. This is especially the case if the goal is to keep fairways as firm as reasonably possible.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2021, 10:12:05 AM »
Sean,


Happy New Year!


What are examples of forced bifurcation in golf?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2021, 12:21:55 PM »
So much about pro golf is essentially bifurcated that I don't see why the equipment can't also be.

BTW, I agree with Brandel about longer height fairway grass. Nothing to do with pro golfers, it just makes sense not to unnecessarily stress fairways for handicap golfers. This is especially the case if the goal is to keep fairways as firm as reasonably possible.




+1
super shortly mowed fairways, watered, perma moist minimal sand "billy bunkered" bunkers,and lightning fast, flat pinnable tiers.
Expensive concessions to elite players at the expense(figuratively and literally) of the rest.


Re:Jim
"Forced bifurcation"-there are a few?
Different tees,
Crowds/grandstands
Different tournament setups.
Grooves-2010 groove rule only a "condition of competition"(if adopted) until 2024

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2021, 12:29:02 PM »
Jeff,

And you can add a few more to that:

- Tucked pins
- Readily available Rules officials
- Rarely incurring lost balls with so many eyes on it
- Trampled down rough for "preferred" lies.
- Playing for ungodly amounts of money.
- Caddy for every round.
- Pristine bunker conditions.
- Round the clock staff/coach/therapist at your every beckon call.

I 100% agree, the game is certainly already bifurcated, why not the ball too....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2021, 12:53:34 PM »
Just an aside re: "Pro golfers are becoming better and stronger athletes, which is a primary reason for their increase in length"

Last night I watched Rick Shiels test a 1998 titanium driver against a 2018 driver: the Ping TiSi vs the Ping G400, using the ProV1 with both.

A good test of the above-noted conventional wisdom, since this particular athlete (and pro golfer) couldn't possibly be 'getting better and stronger' because he's the *same athlete* at exactly the *same time*!

The results? He swung the 1998 driver at 111 mph and got 260 yards of carry. He swung the 2018 driver at 110 mph and got 276 yards of carry.

So this athlete (and pro golfer) actually got 1 mph weaker and worse before our very eyes, and yet still carried the ball 16 yards longer with the newer equipment.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 12:55:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2021, 12:59:29 PM »
Posts going astray. Aliens in the internet?
Atb
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:01:56 PM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2021, 01:27:03 PM »
So much about pro golf is essentially bifurcated that I don't see why the equipment can't also be.

BTW, I agree with Brandel about longer height fairway grass. Nothing to do with pro golfers, it just makes sense not to unnecessarily stress fairways for handicap golfers. This is especially the case if the goal is to keep fairways as firm as reasonably possible.




+1
super shortly mowed fairways, watered, perma moist minimal sand "billy bunkered" bunkers,and lightning fast, flat pinnable tiers.
Expensive concessions to elite players at the expense(figuratively and literally) of the rest.


Re:Jim
"Forced bifurcation"-there are a few?
Different tees,
Crowds/grandstands
Different tournament setups.
Grooves-2010 groove rule only a "condition of competition"(if adopted) until 2024

Jim

Happy New Year!

As Jeff states, different tees is a huge bifurcation. Not among the others mentioned, I would also add no handicap. I honestly can't see what the issue is. Not that I am in favour of an equipment roll back for all without actual equipment in the hands of handicap golfers playing on real courses with their golfers mates, but I think bifurcation will likely lead to equipment roll back for all or an abandonment of the USGA/R&A rules by even more US golfers than is currently the case. I think many other major golfing countries would transition far easier from bifurcation to equipment roll back because so many actually have real handicaps and would like that to continue.  The majority of US golfers aren't really in the proper handicap system now so what is the incentive or stick to make them roll back?

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2021, 08:19:30 AM »
Sean/Jeff/Kalen


Are you sure all the things you listed are bifurcation ? I mean, if I play my home course today and then a friend plays it tomorrow after the greenkeeper has moved some of the tee markers to spread the wear, is that really bifurcation ? Likewise when players in the Open go out in the morning in relative calm and then the afternoon starters have to play in a gale, is that bifurcation, or when Tiger chooses to play Nike and Phil plays Calloway ?


Surely bifurcation is more about allowing one group of players to play with certain equipment while stopping another group from doing the same. Similarly playing to different rules.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2021, 08:32:03 AM »
Sean/Jeff/Kalen

Are you sure all the things you listed are bifurcation ? I mean, if I play my home course today and then a friend plays it tomorrow after the greenkeeper has moved some of the tee markers to spread the wear, is that really bifurcation ? Likewise when players in the Open go out in the morning in relative calm and then the afternoon starters have to play in a gale, is that bifurcation, or when Tiger chooses to play Nike and Phil plays Calloway ?

Surely bifurcation is more about allowing one group of players to play with certain equipment while stopping another group from doing the same. Similarly playing to different rules.

Niall

Niall

I don't think of bifurcation as a forced situation except for where the pros are concerned. They have to play by a prescribed set of regulations. I see bifurcation in the broader sense of golf because it defacto exists. Equipment would be the most important aspect of bifurcation, but the other stuff happens. I think it is fairly common for pros to get any combo of tighter hole locations, faster greens, harsher rough, different tees, immediate access to equipment, medical care on site, caddies etc etc. Of course, this isn't always the case, but it isn't uncommon. The pros we see on tv play a different game, under different conditions and with different ancillary support.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2021, 08:35:24 AM »
Rollback isn’t just about golf.

There’s a much bigger picture to consider including land and water use, population, crops, housing, safety etc etc. All aspects that BC and Co don’t seem to either appreciate or for whatever reason don’t seem to want to appreciate.

Atb


David


How do you know they don't appreciate or have concerns regarding the land use etc ? Is that not a bit of a lazy caricature you're making ?


Besides, who are we to point fingers at on this site. We regularly have threads with posters salivating about the latest destination type course with vast acreages and mega wide fairways. In terms of acreage, what do you think results in more cut grass, widening the fairways by 20 yards or sticking a new tiger tee 20 or 30 yards back ?


As an aside, BDC was actually advocating reducing the amount of grass cut and the frequency it was cut although not principally for ecological reasons.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2021, 09:24:50 AM »
Just an aside re: "Pro golfers are becoming better and stronger athletes, which is a primary reason for their increase in length"

Last night I watched Rick Shiels test a 1998 titanium driver against a 2018 driver: the Ping TiSi vs the Ping G400, using the ProV1 with both.

A good test of the above-noted conventional wisdom, since this particular athlete (and pro golfer) couldn't possibly be 'getting better and stronger' because he's the *same athlete* at exactly the *same time*!

The results? He swung the 1998 driver at 111 mph and got 260 yards of carry. He swung the 2018 driver at 110 mph and got 276 yards of carry.

So this athlete (and pro golfer) actually got 1 mph weaker and worse before our very eyes, and yet still carried the ball 16 yards longer with the newer equipment.


Peter


BDC never said equipment wasn't a part of it but that the power and athleticism of the modern player compared to previous generations was a primary factor. Your example didn't test that theory, only the difference in equipment. The only way I can see that you could test his theory is if you had reliable data on a sizeable group of tour players back in the day, and then gave a representative group of modern tour players the same equipment, some time to practice with it, and then see how they got on.


Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2021, 09:54:36 AM »
Niall,
Are you sure you’re not getting BC’s and BDC’s mixed-up.
And BC (not BDC) has been pretty repetitive in his position for quite some time now concentrating, deliberately some might suggest, on certain lines of argument while remaining silent in relation to other aspects.
Atb

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2021, 10:04:43 AM »
 8)  At least BC's approach would be cheap to implement and test out! 



Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2021, 02:14:44 PM »
None of the things listed are bifurcation.

Bifurcation is under the Rules. There aren’t rules governing how many spectators Tiger gets versus you in a Saturday round.

They’re “differences” but not bifurcations.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2021, 02:35:00 PM »
Golf carts seem like bifurcation.  They are against the rules on the PGA tour and within the rules for score posting purposes and in the vast majority of amateur competitions. 

Imagine if you could drive a cart around the bases in your softball league. 

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2021, 03:36:54 PM »
Golf carts seem like bifurcation.  They are against the rules on the PGA tour and within the rules for score posting purposes and in the vast majority of amateur competitions. 

Imagine if you could drive a cart around the bases in your softball league.


Use of lasers
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2021, 06:03:31 PM »
None of the things listed are bifurcation.

Bifurcation is under the Rules. There aren’t rules governing how many spectators Tiger gets versus you in a Saturday round.

They’re “differences” but not bifurcations.


Eric,

Not sure where you got your definition from, but MW says this.  It doesn't mean its limited to just rules:

1) the point or area at which something divides into two branches or parts
2) the state of being divided into two branches or parts

If regular every day play is Earth, the PGA Tour is the moon..

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2021, 07:25:25 PM »
Golf carts seem like bifurcation.
Still no. Plenty of amateur competitions use the same rule. Particularly junior events. It is not a Tour only rule at all.

Eric,

Not sure where you got your definition from, but MW says this.  It doesn't mean its limited to just rules:

1) the point or area at which something divides into two branches or parts
2) the state of being divided into two branches or parts

If regular every day play is Earth, the PGA Tour is the moon..

Calen, you’re making my point for me. Players on the PGA Tour bifurcate amongst themselves. After all, they don’t all play the same model and manufacturer of equipment, they all tee off at different times, they all have different playing partners, they all have different gallery sizes, they all play in different weather, etc.

If you define bifurcation that strictly then it becomes meaningless.

Golf isn’t bifurcated.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2021, 09:08:16 PM »
Still no. Plenty of amateur competitions use the same rule. Particularly junior events. It is not a Tour only rule at all.


Would you say that baseball isn't bifurcated since there are hundreds of wood bat leagues across the country, including ones for college players? 


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2021, 09:48:20 PM »
Would you say that baseball isn't bifurcated since there are hundreds of wood bat leagues across the country, including ones for college players?
They play literally different RULES.

They have different ruling bodies. Major League Baseball doesn’t govern how Little League is played. Of course baseball is bifurcated. Hell, prior to this year, the American League and National League were bifurcated by the DH rule.

The PGA Tour, the U.S. Open, etc. all play by the same rules with the same equipment that’s legal at basically every other level of the game. The game, worldwide, has effectively one ruling body (the USGA and R&A are the two, but they’ve been in agreement for awhile on the Rules themselves).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2021, 02:51:26 AM »
Baseball is actually a very interesting test case for a golf rollback.  In baseball, the reason for the bifurcation in the first place was economics (similar to why steel shafts came to be in golf)- a college player goes through about 5 bats per season with metal vs 50-100 with wood.  And when they allowed aluminum bats in 1974, they were heavy and didn't give any performance advantage over wood.  The bifurcated system steadily caused problems over time as the bat tech advanced and the bats got lighter and more trampoline like- scouts soon had trouble telling who's hitting would translate to the MLB and injuries were occurring and generating litigation.

In order to solve these problems, a very significant rollback occurred in college baseball in 2011 with the metal bats and it drastically changed the college game and made it more similar to MLB.  The new bat standard lowered the advantage of the metal bats over wood and the change lowered the number of homeruns per game by nearly 50% and returned it to 1973 levels.  Runs scored per game went from about 7 to just over 5.  Batting averages went from .305 to .270.  And one unintended consequence from the change was that the average time for a college baseball game drastically decreased- by nearly half and hour per game. 

The bat change brought back the need to have well rounded players since defense became necessary again and since hitters could no longer get away with sloppy fundamentals.  Per a coach, "I'm a fan of the new regulations.  By reducing the margin of error, they benefit the good players at the expense of players who had poor hitting fundamentals but were saved by a bat that could perform miracles."  My words here- before the change, it was really hard for scouts to figure out which hitters were frauds and which were the real deal.  A player would look great with the light/ springy bats and then be a flop in the MLB.  As golf fans, we're like the scout that is wowed by guys who would get exposed at the next level... we just never see the next level. 

One other observation from baseball.  "An interesting 1994 study of Japanese High School baseball players comparing the wood-only and metal bat eras in Japanese baseball found that after the introduction of metal bats, winning teams had a higher percentage of larger, stronger players. In the wood-only era winning teams won games by getting lots of men on base with well placed singles, moving players by stealing bases and sacrifice bunts, and applying squeeze plays. After metal bats were introduced, winning teams won mostly by relying on the long ball with larger players who had built up muscle mass through weight training and who could take advantage of the hotter metal bats to hit more multiple-base hits and home runs." 

Golf isn't changing because of the athletes, the athletes are being drawn into the game and/or rewarded because golf equipment changed. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 02:53:38 AM by Peter Flory »

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2021, 05:50:13 AM »


Put todays players on course setups from 1980 at 6400 yards and that number would be a helluva lot bigger.  These guys would be driving half of the par 4s, have wedge into the other half, and making a complete mockery of the par 5s.

If BC is gonna talk GIRs it needs to be apples to apples...


you talking with todays equipment or 1980's equipment?

Todays equipment...give them the shitty stuff from 1980 and then it would be apples to apples.

P.S.  Yes, I attribute very little to distance gains to player fitness.  The Senior Tour being Exhibit A, where most of those guys are longer now than they were 30 years ago, when they were in thier physical prime.


Clearly Jack was taking advantage of his physical prime...

http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2021, 05:51:33 AM »
Jeff,

And you can add a few more to that:

- Tucked pins
- Readily available Rules officials
- Rarely incurring lost balls with so many eyes on it
- Trampled down rough for "preferred" lies.
- Playing for ungodly amounts of money.
- Caddy for every round.
- Pristine bunker conditions.
- Round the clock staff/coach/therapist at your every beckon call.

I 100% agree, the game is certainly already bifurcated, why not the ball too....


When does the scratch golfer have to start playing the tournament ball for competition?

How *does* a scratch golfer become a scratch golfer is their handicap is based off one ball and not the other?

Do any of you actually *try* to play golf?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chamblee on Distance
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2021, 08:52:56 AM »
Baseball is actually a very interesting test case for a golf rollback.  In baseball, the reason for the bifurcation in the first place was economics (similar to why steel shafts came to be in golf)- a college player goes through about 5 bats per season with metal vs 50-100 with wood.  And when they allowed aluminum bats in 1974, they were heavy and didn't give any performance advantage over wood.  The bifurcated system steadily caused problems over time as the bat tech advanced and the bats got lighter and more trampoline like- scouts soon had trouble telling who's hitting would translate to the MLB and injuries were occurring and generating litigation.

In order to solve these problems, a very significant rollback occurred in college baseball in 2011 with the metal bats and it drastically changed the college game and made it more similar to MLB.  The new bat standard lowered the advantage of the metal bats over wood and the change lowered the number of homeruns per game by nearly 50% and returned it to 1973 levels.  Runs scored per game went from about 7 to just over 5.  Batting averages went from .305 to .270.  And one unintended consequence from the change was that the average time for a college baseball game drastically decreased- by nearly half and hour per game. 

The bat change brought back the need to have well rounded players since defense became necessary again and since hitters could no longer get away with sloppy fundamentals.  Per a coach, "I'm a fan of the new regulations.  By reducing the margin of error, they benefit the good players at the expense of players who had poor hitting fundamentals but were saved by a bat that could perform miracles."  My words here- before the change, it was really hard for scouts to figure out which hitters were frauds and which were the real deal.  A player would look great with the light/ springy bats and then be a flop in the MLB.  As golf fans, we're like the scout that is wowed by guys who would get exposed at the next level... we just never see the next level. 

One other observation from baseball.  "An interesting 1994 study of Japanese High School baseball players comparing the wood-only and metal bat eras in Japanese baseball found that after the introduction of metal bats, winning teams had a higher percentage of larger, stronger players. In the wood-only era winning teams won games by getting lots of men on base with well placed singles, moving players by stealing bases and sacrifice bunts, and applying squeeze plays. After metal bats were introduced, winning teams won mostly by relying on the long ball with larger players who had built up muscle mass through weight training and who could take advantage of the hotter metal bats to hit more multiple-base hits and home runs." 

Golf isn't changing because of the athletes, the athletes are being drawn into the game and/or rewarded because golf equipment changed. 

Peter,

The golf-baseball bifurcation analogy has come up many, many times over the years, and while I agree with you that it's interesting, I continue to believe that it is a poor analogy at best, and not really helpful at all to the rule-making bodies of golf.

As you point out, amateur baseball went to metal bats for cost reasons rather than performance issues, which the exact reverse of what is being discussed in golf.  Professional baseball stayed the same, and remains that way, and the metal bats used by amateurs have been constantly changed, most recently to more accurately mirror the equipment being used by the pros.  I don't think any of that is instructive for golf.

And the idea that bifurcation has worked in baseball and so could work in golf ignores the central difference between the two sports, which is participation by the masses.  I play golf 4 times a week with a bunch of old guys; we ALL played baseball a thousand years ago, but no more.  The golf "industry" is based on continued participation by amateurs; there is no such thing in amateur baseball, even if you count recreation softball. 


In short, the bifurcation of baseball was done for different reasons than those that face golf, and impacts a completely different demographic than golf. 


Two other points:  MLB is currently grappling with how to deal with fundamental changes in the way the game is being played, including the heavy emphasis on launch angles and hitting the ball in the air, rather than on the ground, or even line drives.  There are new strikeout records being set every year now.  The ethic in MLB has become, more and more, to try to hit a home run and to accept a high rate of strikeouts as the cost.  It's not the only issue that MLB is facing, but it's a big one, and it exists in spite of wood bats. 


And finally, I'd change your last point to money rather than equipment being the draw for bigger, stronger athletes to golf.  There has never been a time in the history of golf where longer hitters weren't advantaged, regardless of equipment; that is no more true today than ever.  There ARE more long hitters today, for sure, but you'd be hard pressed, I think, to prove that they came to golf because they thought the equipment would work to their favor.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones