[Rob Rigg]

Top 5 I've played that would be wonderful daily walks . . .

- Ballyneal- Bandon Trails- Cypress Point- Friars Head- Lahinch
Did 171 in a day at Ballyneal so don't think any of them are "tough walks" for 18.

[Paul Rudovsky]

For me, the less disputable revelation of the thread is the list of courses that got ZERO votes.  Nobody ever questions Pine Valley as the greatest course in America -- but I don't think it got any votes here.  Ditto many of our storied championship venues, even though [as their promoters always insist] they have plenty of middle and forward tee options for member play.I'm curious, since you are the numbers guy:  how many courses in the GOLF DIGEST top 100 got even a single vote?  And how many courses outside their top 100 got a vote, even though I'd asked to keep it to the top 100?
[/color]
[/color]Tom--
good questions...some of which I had asked myself as well, but needed a day off from the slog necessary to get this data.  Will give it a shot by Monday latest.  Will compare to latest GD and GM Top 100's.  [/size]

[Sean_A]

The results follow...understand that if a course was named 3 times, twice as the only course named on ballot and once as one of four courses on a ballot...that course would total 2.25 points


with a total of 72 GCA'ers voting (as of 11:45pm Eastern on Friday night), the top 10 were:


10.  Ballyneal                         1.75 points
9.    Valley Club of Montecito   1.87 points
8.    Merion-East                    2.00
7.    Shoreacres                     2.12
6.    Mid Pines                        2.15
5.    Old Town                        2.23  Thereby winning the NC Championship in an extremely tight race
4.    Torrey Pines-South          2.67  Shocking the analysts who had made early predictions
3.    Somerset Hills                2.92   Making some wonder if these results will cause the USGA two revisit their
 decision to move certain operations to Pinehurst
2.    NGLA                             3.93


and the runaway winner is:


1.    Cypress Point Club          7.08


Cypress was named on 17 ballots (including 3 stand alone votes worth of course 3 points between them) compared to NGLA's being named on 9 ballots (including 2 stand alone votes) , and Old Town in third place being named on 6.

Paul:


If you agree not to take your posted results too seriously, I will agree not to ask Jon Cummings to explain the shortfall of your tabulation system.   


For me, the less disputable revelation of the thread is the list of courses that got ZERO votes.  Nobody ever questions Pine Valley as the greatest course in America -- but I don't think it got any votes here.  Ditto many of our storied championship venues, even though [as their promoters always insist] they have plenty of middle and forward tee options for member play.


I'm curious, since you are the numbers guy:  how many courses in the GOLF DIGEST top 100 got even a single vote? 
And how many courses outside their top 100 got a vote, even though I'd asked to keep it to the top 100?


The point is, there's more to golf than the top 100 . . . and trying to get into the top 100 seems not to be the best way to build a course that everyone enjoys.

I probably would have chosen Palmetto, but for the top 100 stipulation. I most certainly would have chosen a GB&I course if not for the US stipulation.

Happy Hockey

[Thomas Dai]

Out of interest I googled how many many golf courses there are in the world.
Below are the numbers as per the UK's Golf Monthly, June 2019.
Just a few to pick from even with non-US included.
atb

Number of golf courses in the world – 38,864
USA – 16,752
Japan – 3,169
Canada – 2,633
England – 2,270
Australia – 1,616
Germany – 1,050
France – 804
South Korea – 798
Sweden – 662
Scotland – 614
China – 599
Spain – 497
Ireland – 494
South Africa – 489
New Zealand – 418
Argentina – 349
Denmark – 346
Netherlands – 330
Italy – 321
Thailand – 315

[Sean_A]

What's up Welsh Wizard? No Wales in the count?

Happy Hockey

[jeffwarne]

The results follow...understand that if a course was named 3 times, twice as the only course named on ballot and once as one of four courses on a ballot...that course would total 2.25 points


with a total of 72 GCA'ers voting (as of 11:45pm Eastern on Friday night), the top 10 were:


10.  Ballyneal                         1.75 points
9.    Valley Club of Montecito   1.87 points
8.    Merion-East                    2.00
7.    Shoreacres                     2.12
6.    Mid Pines                        2.15
5.    Old Town                        2.23  Thereby winning the NC Championship in an extremely tight race
4.    Torrey Pines-South          2.67  Shocking the analysts who had made early predictions
3.    Somerset Hills                2.92   Making some wonder if these results will cause the USGA two revisit their
 decision to move certain operations to Pinehurst
2.    NGLA                             3.93


and the runaway winner is:


1.    Cypress Point Club          7.08


Cypress was named on 17 ballots (including 3 stand alone votes worth of course 3 points between them) compared to NGLA's being named on 9 ballots (including 2 stand alone votes) , and Old Town in third place being named on 6.

Paul:





 Nobody ever questions Pine Valley as the greatest course in America --

Actually I have,on these pages many times.
I still consider it great, but not in my Top 5-maybe not even Top 10.
Too penal, quite one dimensional-IMHO.
Each individual hole would be welcome at any course, but often a similar strategy/theme.
Keep in mind this is comparing it on a the highest standard in the world-as the undisputed greatest course.And with my own inherent biases and experiences.
I remember the first time I played it-played very well hitting 1 irons and 3 woods all day-medium sized target golf was how I described it. Others I played with simply couldn't keep enough shots in the corridors to make it fun for anyone, and I grew a bit tired of every shot making the conservative play. A bit like Tom's advice to play Pinehurst for the front of every green-any repetitive strategy gets old-even on great courses with many great holes.
Talk about a first world problem!
PV's changed a bit over the years, more manicured, some tree work and gotten longer, but I just feel there are so many places I'd rather play-and more importantly so many other places I'd rather take a non single digit player.
Somerset Hills,Sleepy Hollow,Maidstone, NGLA, Cypress, Merion, Palmetto,Eastward Ho, Bandon x 5.-many Links and Heathland courses overseas..
I'd certainly put Tara Iti over it and Royal Melbourne as well as both courses at Barnbougle.
Like modern players with knowledge of better technique and better athletes, why wouldn't today's great architects, with great knowledge and historical study with great sites be able to build a better course than Pine Valley?
Yes I know he said "country"...

[Paul Rudovsky]

OK...answers to Tom's questions and other questions.  Note that the following is based on the voted placed prior to my posting my analysis Friday night...so apologizes to Messrs Deruntz, Rigg, and Sean A who have vote since...not to two others who have voted since but violated my "no more than 5 USA courses can be suggested" rule.

So there are 86 different USA courses that were mentioned on the votes that conformed to my rules....


--43 of the 86 were on the latest (2020) GOLF USA Top 100
--17 of the 86 were not on 2020 GOLF USA Top 100...but were included in the 200 courses listed as being in the Top 50 of the 4 USA regions
--26 of the 86 were not among the 200 courses listed as being in the Top 50 of the 4 USA regions

--30 of the 86 were on the latest (2019) Golf Digest USA 100 Greatest
--11 of the 86 were on the latest (2019) Golf Digest USA 200 Greatest in slots 101-200
--45 of the 86 were NOT on the latest (2019) Golf Digest USA 200 Greatest

Now...here are courses that were in the top 25 in either GOLF 2020 or Golf Digest 2019...and were not mentioned by anyone:

PVGC--#1 on both.
Oakmont--#5 on both.
Friars--#13 on GOLF and #15 on GD.
Chicago Golf--#14 on both.
WF-West--#15 on GOLF and #11 on GD.
Crystal Dns--#16 on GOLF and #13 on GD.
The Country Club (MA)*--#22 on GOLF and #18 on GD.
Muirfield Village--#16 on GD. 
Oakland Hills--#20 on GD.  Whistling St--#21 on GD.  Oak Hill--#22 on GD.  Kiawah-Ocean--#24 on GD.  Wade Hampton--#25 on GD. 

note that the last 6 on this list were on the GOLF 100...but not within a 1-25 slot.   

*TCC was mentioned on one of the posts but that post listed more than 5 courses.  Despite our belonging and playing there and my love for the place I stayed at least semi-honest and excluded that vote under my 5 or less rule. 

[Tom_Doak]

Like modern players with knowledge of better technique and better athletes, why wouldn't today's great architects, with great knowledge and historical study with great sites be able to build a better course than Pine Valley?

The main reason we can't build anything like Pine Valley is that most clients would be scared to try, for fear of writing off too many potential customers.  Every course that's tried to go for a similar look [WorldWoods, Sand Valley, etc.] has also tried to be "more playable" with flatter greens, and has failed to inspire the same love from elite golfers.  Pine Valley is considered special BECAUSE it writes off 90% of golfers.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:


The one course that stands out in your list of ignored courses is Chicago Golf Club.  It's certainly not too hard to play every day, which is what probably kept Pine Valley and Oakmont off the list.  Perhaps it's just that not too many here have played it?  Or is this a sign that it's overrated?

[Paul Rudovsky]

Paul:


The one course that stands out in your list of ignored courses is Chicago Golf Club.  It's certainly not too hard to play every day, which is what probably kept Pine Valley and Oakmont off the list.  Perhaps it's just that not too many here have played it?  Or is this a sign that it's overrated?

my guess is not that many have played.  also, when you answer a thread like this, it is sometimes hard to think of all the really good alternatives unless you review some sort of list (either a published list like a top 100 or one's own list) as you are answering.  I would also point out that Sand Hills only got one mention!!


oh...one other thing...some could have legitimately excluded certain courses as candidates because the climate is not playable all year round (Chicago, Sand Hills, etc.)

[Tom_Doak]

oh...one other thing...some could have legitimately excluded certain courses as candidates because the climate is not playable all year round (Chicago, Sand Hills, etc.)

Yes, but that would be at odds with Shoreacres and Ballyneal being in the top ten.

[jeffwarne]

Like modern players with knowledge of better technique and better athletes, why wouldn't today's great architects, with great knowledge and historical study with great sites be able to build a better course than Pine Valley?

The main reason we can't build anything like Pine Valley is that most clients would be scared to try, for fear of writing off too many potential customers.  Every course that's tried to go for a similar look [WorldWoods, Sand Valley, etc.] has also tried to be "more playable" with flatter greens, and has failed to inspire the same love from elite golfers.  Pine Valley is considered special BECAUSE it writes off 90% of golfers.

Wasn't suggesting or questioning that "architects can't build anything like Pine Valley" .
Was saying architects COULD and IMHO have built courses better than Pine Valley-due to some recent great sites, coupled with great architecture born of travel and  experience unavailable on such a scale to Golden Age architects.
If someone tried to build a "Pine Valley" they would probably be panned for unoriginality-depending of course on who they were


As far as PV writing off 90% of golfers, I can see how that could/would make it special, and a winner of a category, but that perhaps is what eliminates it from consideration in my book as the #1 course in the world(or country).And elevates such a place as TOC or Palmetto and even Augusta once upon a time.
Perhaps I simply need to play Pine Valley again -it's been a long time and I've seen a lot since then. No doubt I'm much more qualified to judge now that I've had 10 months to grow this beard....

[Gib_Papazian]

Going back to the original question - one of the considerations is simply that of selecting a course providing consistent strategic interest as we age. Olympic Lake would actually be at the bottom of my list, because it is a tough walk - and even from the Senior Tees (Thank you, Charlie Ferguson), the topography in terms of shotmaking are already exhausting.


After a half-dozen spinal rehabs, epidurals and a spiffy new zipper at the base of my back last year, anything beyond 6,200 yards requires constantly rearing back with the "big stick," which is really an 11.5 degree Taylor Made with a shaft softer than an octogenarian's johnson.


Since we are confining the discussion to American courses, I'll nominate Westhampton. Classical arrangements, amusing quirks and an easy walk (golf carts are against my religion) - while challenging my mind with shot options more than what is left of my clubhead speed.


Another that comes to mind - believe it or not - is Monarch Dunes in Nipomo. Yeah, Damian "666" Pascuzzo . . . . . . not a great golf course, but it passes the most important test: After we are done, I had fun - a lot of it. Yes, it is nutty and quirky and hopelessly artificial (so is much of Raynor), but I keep going back every chance I get.


You can put Eagle Point in Medford on that list . . . . and if the wind lays down below hurricane levels, the author of this thread came up with a pretty good keeper at the Bandon resort.






   


       

[Ira Fishman]

Paul:


The one course that stands out in your list of ignored courses is Chicago Golf Club.  It's certainly not too hard to play every day, which is what probably kept Pine Valley and Oakmont off the list.  Perhaps it's just that not too many here have played it?  Or is this a sign that it's overrated?

Roughly 80 of the GD 100 are private. And generally the higher on the list, the more exclusive they are. I grew up in the Chicago area; the notion of playing Chicago Golf was far fetched then, just as it is now.


Ira

[Tim_Weiman]

If top 100, how do you not want to play Cypress. It has it all, low key club atmosphere, holes in the Del Monte Forest, in the dunes. and along the ocean. Is there a close second?

Tommy,


I can’t respect anyone who mentioned Cypress Point. It is equivalent of saying you want to go to heaven when you die.


But I will be a hypocrite and mention another slice of heaven: Dooks. Not a championship or great course by any means, but it is just such a pleasant place.


Tom asked us to discard the Sandbelt courses, but while Royal Melbourne still understandably got several votes, nobody mentioned Kingston Heath. I was grateful to Tom for arranging for me to spend a day with the late Paul Rak. Kingston Heath just struck me as a great balance between architecture and walkability. If “a course you could play everyday” also means when you get older, KH might be it.

[Jim Sherma]

Dooks would be a great choice for this. While it may not be a "great" course, it certainly is one of the great ways to spend any 3-4 hours of one's life.

[JC Jones]

Pinehurst #2 - Those greens would only get better and better with more play. Easy walk, hard to lose a ball, an a world class set of greens...what else could you ask for? However to John Kavanaugh's point I'm not sure I'd want to play everyday in a 5-hour round behind 4 resort guests....so...maybe not?

this didn't age well

[Paul Rudovsky]

OK, last update on all responses (through reply #141)...relaxed rule regarding how many courses you could name before vote not counted to max of 10 courses...that leaves just two ballots excluded (they named about 15 courses each). 


There were 80 ballots counted and these ballots named 101 USA courses and 20 Overseas (including Canada) courses.  Most limited their selections to USA courses per Tom's instructions...but most did not seem to limit their choices to Top 100's.


The votes were tabulated as per the rules I mentioned in my prior update (reply #86) and here are the top 12 USA courses in terms of these votes.  The numbers after the course name are: "value" of the votes (so if someone named a single course the "value" is 1.00...if they name three courses each is given a value of 0.33), number of ballots mentioning this course (same as prior number but with "1.00" for all mentions), position* on GOLF Mag's 2020 USA Top 100, position* on Golf Digest's 2019 USA 100 Greatest:


* 200 if included in GM 101-200 grouping, the exact position if on GD's second 100, and NR if NOT included in top 200


1.  Cypress Point  7.33    18      2       3
2.  NGLA              3.93     9       4       8
3.  Somerset Hills 2.92     5       23     63
4.  Torrey Pines-S 2.67     4       200   186
5.  Mid Pines        2.25     6       200    NR
6.  Old Town        2.23     5        41     98
7.  Shoreacres     2.12     5        24     55
8.  Ballyneal        2.00     4        34     46
9.  Merion-E        2.00      3       8       6
10. Valley Club    1.87     5        57     86
11. Yeamans       1.77     4        47     95
12. Cal Club        1.70     3        27     109


Here is how the 101 courses that appeared on 1 or more ballots were distributed on GOLF's and GD's last USA Top 200 listings:
 
Position   GOLF      GD
1-100      45          32
101-200   19          12
Not includ 37          57


Total        101        101


The Overseas courses are located as follows:  Australia-4, New Zealand-1, Canada-1, France-1, England-4, Ireland-4, Scotland-5


TOC and RMGC were each mentioned 4x
Dooks and R Dornoch were each mention 2x
The other 16 were all mentioned 1x and are listed below:


Victoria -AUS
Kingston Heath-AUS
Barwon Heads-AUS
Tara Iti-NZ
Cabot Links-CAN
Morfontaine-France
Swinley Forest-ENG
Westward Ho!-ENG
Huntercombe-ENG
Sunningdale-ENG
Portmarnock-IRE
European Club-IRE
Ballybunion Old-IRE
Golspie-SCOT
North Berwick-SCOT
Gullane #1-SCOT




Will try to answer any you post on this thread.

[Cristian]

-Old Mac (more than any other at BD)
-Yeamans Hall

Blatantly stealing a topic here from Jeff Brauer, on the thread about Ordinary Courses.


I think he was right to say that for all but destination golf, building a course you could play every day and not get bored on is one of the most important aspects of golf design.  So, which of the famous courses stand out in this respect?  Not too hard to play every day, but something you'd never get tired of?


For me, the list would have to start with The Old Course and Royal Melbourne.  Actually, in general, most UK links and most of the Sand Belt courses are going to do rather well by this metric, so let's skip them for now and confine the discussion to American courses.  Which of the top 100 courses in the U.S.A. would you want to play every day?


[Please list no more than a handful.]

[Cristian]

Pasa is a poor choice. Unwalkable with overpriced food and drink. To many angry neighbors posting rules in their back yard.

Unwalkable for who?

[Ryan Taylor]

Kingsley Club
Mid Pines
Old Town
Franklin Hills
Bandon Trails

[Carl Rogers]

I do not see the point of this


If the course you could play every is ultra private, then how can it be called a course for every day?

[Rob Rigg]

Paul:


The one course that stands out in your list of ignored courses is Chicago Golf Club.  It's certainly not too hard to play every day, which is what probably kept Pine Valley and Oakmont off the list.  Perhaps it's just that not too many here have played it?  Or is this a sign that it's overrated?

I've played there and it just didn't pop into the ol' noggin' for this exercise. Chicago GC is a really nice walk and the club is a true cathedral of American golf but I don't think it's as "interesting" or "fun" as Cypress, Ballyneal, LACC North, or Friar's Head as a course you'd love to play everyday. I haven't played most of Long Island or the Carolinas which seem to have a long list of fun walkable courses too.

By and large, the linksy GBI courses seem like they'd be more enjoyable to play daily because they're fun, strategic and change drastically with the wind and weather (although some of the weather conditions are . . . yikes!).

[Paul Rudovsky]

I've played there and it just didn't pop into the ol' noggin' for this exercise. Chicago GC is a really nice walk and the club is a true cathedral of American golf but I don't think it's as "interesting" or "fun" as Cypress, Ballyneal, LACC North, or Friar's Head as a course you'd love to play everyday. I haven't played most of Long Island or the Carolinas which seem to have a long list of fun walkable courses too.

By and large, the linksy GBI courses seem like they'd be more enjoyable to play daily because they're fun, strategic and change drastically with the wind and weather (although some of the weather conditions are . . . yikes!).



IMHO, the last couple of lines above from Rob answer the Chicago Golf question as well as possible.  Even some of the greatest courses in the world can get boring after a while...but those that sit by the sea change each day with the weather, making them play totally differently from day to day or even hour to hour.  That is an essential ingredient, I think, in the "play every day" question.

Chicago is a better candidate for the "last round" question, but it was not mentioned there as well.

[Jim Franklin]

In a shocking upset, I am going with Rock Creek Cattle Company. Everyday would be a dream come true.

Others would be:

NGLA
Ohoopee
Cypress Point
Ballyneal

edit:

I would add Gamble Sands and Wolf Point to my list.

Common theme amongst my choices are firm and fast with interesting greens.

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