[Steve Lapper]

Steve -
that's interesting, because I think it highlights an 'occupational hazard' around here, especially given the number of posters-participants who are architects and rating panelists and/or industry members and media types:
the 'hazard' is that we can sometimes blur the lines between 'great work' and 'great courses', ie between what an architect has managed to achieve on a given site/project with all its many and varied restrictions and limitations ('the work', for insiders) and what an average golfer actually sees and experiences on a given day when he gets to a place knowing little about it and plays it for his first and only time ('the course', for the outsiders).

Peter,


  That's a fair description of what is also known as cognitive bias. As a panelist for one of the rating groups, I am all too familiar with different thoughts that give weight to some of those observational differences you mentioned.


 No matter, I've long held Stone Eagle in such high regard because of familiarity with the terrain the course sits on. It is essentially rock and brush desert washes.


 I've had lesser opinions to parts of Tom's other courses (i.e. #'s 2 & 8 at Sebonack, #'s 10 & 11 at Streamsong Blue, etc..), both built on marvelous (and easier) properties. At each, the remainder of the holes hold up very, very well but those don't evoke the same feeling. There's not a hole at Stone Eagle that feels markedly less than another. That's quite an accomplishment on that land IMO.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally:


I don't really sign up for projects if I don't think they have anything going for them, do you?  But sometimes I do take on sites that are less than top 100 material, for a variety of reasons.  To try and answer your questions:



- Most compact / smallest site (how big?)
     I've done a couple of major remodels where we only had 130-140 acres:  Concord in Australia, and North Shore on Long Island.  But most of my new projects were on spacious properties [even the "lesser" ones], or they were connected with a housing component or something.  Carl's favorite, Riverfront, feels cramped today, but the total site was around 1000 acres! 
     I think Charlotte Golf Links [RIP] was probably the smallest, at 165 acres IIRC.  Stone Eagle had some land I didn't use because it was ugly, but we fit the finished course into less than 200 acres, with 300 feet of elevation change and all the obstacles it provided.  Beechtree and Sebonack lost a lot of ground to wetlands and setbacks, but they were well over 200 acres.
 

- Worst soil / worst natural drainage
     Charlotte Golf Links, Quail Crossing, and Beechtree were all "an education in clay," built on modest budgets that didn't include a huge number for drainage, so we solved most everything with surface drainage.  But they all had some elevation to work with.  The Legends (Heathland) was flat and a lot of it was quasi underwater -- we managed to skirt the environmental rules by digging burns to drain those areas, some of which are now fairways.  If I did that now it would be illegal.



- Least interesting topography/ features / vegetation.
     The Rawls Course was an ag research field, with none of the above; there was three feet of tilt from NW to SE over 320 acres.  If I had it to do over again, I'd do *less*, but that was not what the donor wanted for his $8M, so we did *more*.
     CommonGround in Denver had a little bit of topography, but no real interesting topo, no features, and only a few trees of any size.  But that at least it all drained somewhere to start, so we could build a relatively low-key course for half the price of The Rawls Course.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve -
that's interesting, because I think it highlights an 'occupational hazard' around here, especially given the number of posters-participants who are architects and rating panelists and/or industry members and media types:
the 'hazard' is that we can sometimes blur the lines between 'great work' and 'great courses', ie between what an architect has managed to achieve on a given site/project with all its many and varied restrictions and limitations ('the work', for insiders) and what an average golfer actually sees and experiences on a given day when he gets to a place knowing little about it and plays it for his first and only time ('the course', for the outsiders).

But the whole point is to try to make it so you can't tell the difference.  If a golfer goes out to play and starts thinking about the restrictions of the site, then the design has failed.


I've had a lot of great sites to work with, but at the end of the day "the course" is the only thing you care about, not "the work" it took to get it there.  So I don't know why outsiders try to pick apart the differences?  Especially since, in my experience, even the "insiders" fail to sort them out correctly.  The implication is that anyone could build a great course on a great site, but if that were true, more people would have actually done it by now. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks for the answers, Tom


You are in a lucky / well earned position to choose not to sign up for non-attractive projects. I’m in the same position for other reasons.


I know many architects who aren’t and will grab hold of virtually any opportunity just to keep their head above water.


That said, I am always interested in the hardest sites you’ve worked on, mainly because I guessed they can’t all have been “great” and whilst there’s no doubt you make great courses from excellent sites (and not everyone can do that), it is the quality of the courses from the poorer / harder sites that might prove the biggest differentiator between you and many others.

[Tom_Doak]

I know many architects who aren’t and will grab hold of virtually any opportunity just to keep their head above water.

That's why they keep getting bad sites.  Who's going to trust them with a good one after seeing all of that?


Even the big signature architects kept making that mistake, and eventually it created a niche for a few of us to get the cool sites instead.  Of course they are probably laughing all the way to the bank, but that's okay as long as they leave me the cool sites!

[Kevin Pallier]

I've updated the OP to include a list of Doak original designs

[Daryl David]

I’ve played 17 of the original designs. My favorites.

My Top 3
Pac Dunes
Ballyneal
Tara Iti

Honorable mention
Cape Kidnappers
St. Andrews Beach
Rock Creek

Least Best, but still damn good
Common Ground
Bahia de los Suenos
Dismal Red

[Stewart Abramson]

I've played 14, but don't like this game  I will say that my time at Ballyneal was one of the best golf experiences I've had in the U.S.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't much like the game either. I've played twelve of Tom's courses. My favorites are Lost Dunes, Sebonack, Ballyneal, Stone Eagle. I don't think I was ready for High Pointe when I played it. I played it three or four times, mostly because it was less expensive than other area courses. There were some holes that stand out but it was different from anything I had ever played, so I didn't much like it. I wish I had another shot at it.


It makes me wonder what other courses I need to see that I played 30 years ago that I didn't like.

[Brian Brown]

Sebonack is the second best course I've ever played, right behind Oakmont. I think its the best on LI and I've played all except Garden City.

Hey Jeff,
Just curious as to why you think Sebonak is the best on the Island?  Is it the routing, views?  I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts.
Brian

[Rob Rigg]

Haven't played Ballyneal in a while but it's an absolute masterpiece. The mix of shots that you are called to hit, pacing of the round, fun factor, opportunities to go for the "heroic" and thoroughly enjoyable walk (nevermind the awesome vibe of the club) are incredibly special and next level.

Worst is a fairly harsh word isn't it? LOL

Pac Dunes, Old Mac, Streamsong Blue, Dismal Red, CommonGround and Stone Eagle are the other Doak courses that i've played and enjoyed them all. Wouldn't call any of the above "worst," just not as complete a perfect golf experience as BN.

I'm intrigued by the Sand Valley course and think it will be a wonderful contrast to the other courses at the resort. Very much looking forward to visiting WI when it's open and settled to see them all for the first time.

[Jeff Evagues]

Sebonack is the second best course I've ever played, right behind Oakmont. I think its the best on LI and I've played all except Garden City.

Hey Jeff,
Just curious as to why you think Sebonak is the best on the Island?  Is it the routing, views?  I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts.
Brian

I like the routing ( I particularly thought it was great you could stand on the first tee and hit a short iron onto the National clubhouse) but for me it was the condition - I thought you could hold the US Open there the next day.

[Mark Smolens]

  IMO, Tom's work at Stone Eagle is one of the "Best" for me.  Surely the likes of Tara Iti, Cape Kidnappers, Pac Dunes, and Ballyneal are all better and modern classics. Why Stone Eagle? For many, if not most, it might be their least favorite.

All of the above are first-world problems for modern golf course architecture.

Have to agree that his best are world class.  Stone Eagle is not for the high handicap player.


My least favorite Doak is Lost Dunes in Michigan.  Tough routing with a highway going through it.  Can't remember any signature holes?  Seems like it was penal if you missed it.

Funny, I absolutely love whenever I get a chance to play Lost Dunes. 4th green could be my favorite anywhere. A par-5 that is reachable even by a chop like me, but if you're on in the wrong spot. . . good luck. Second shot into 2 with a left pin? Caddy, how'd I do?11 and 12 are incredible holes up and then back down the hill. Love trying to get the ball back into play on 15 after cutting off too much (for no good reason -- just get it in play left of the post and move it down the damn fairway!). I've always found the course to be very playable with plenty of room off the tee unless you get greedy. Challenge is the greens, but what fun.

[Kevin Pallier]

Through Post 37


Best
Pacific Dunes (H-Rating 10s & 9s)
Ballyneal (H-Rating 9s)
Barnbougle Dunes (H-Rating 9s)


Worst
Beechtree [NLE] (L-Rating 5)
CommonGround (L-Rating 6)
Texas Tech University [Rawls] (L-Rating 6)

[Jonathan Cummings]

Some years back Tom asked his staff and a few others to rank his courses.  For some reason, I guess because I had played them all, he included me.  I think the composite list was just an internal exercise and I don't know what happened to it.  Tom?

[Tom_Doak]

Some years back Tom asked his staff and a few others to rank his courses.  For some reason, I guess because I had played them all, he included me.  I think the composite list was just an internal exercise and I don't know what happened to it.  Tom?

The last time I did it was in 2017 . . . I only included 21 courses, so it wouldn't cover what is my worst one.  Nine voters including myself and my four associates. 


Results:


1.  Barnbougle  [by a nose]
2.  Pacific Dunes
3.  Ballyneal
4.  Tara Iti
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Cape Kidnappers
7.  St. Andrews Beach




If you go back to the "Rank My Courses" thread from several years ago, the consensus here was that my lowest-rated courses were Charlotte GL and Black Forest [both now closed], and then The Legends (Heathland), Atlantic City CC, and Medinah #1.  Funny, because I was talking with Mike DeVries the other day, and he was reminiscing about how good The Legends is.

[jeffwarne]

Some years back Tom asked his staff and a few others to rank his courses.  For some reason, I guess because I had played them all, he included me.  I think the composite list was just an internal exercise and I don't know what happened to it.  Tom?

The last time I did it was in 2017 . . . I only included 21 courses, so it wouldn't cover what is my worst one.  Nine voters including myself and my four associates. 


Results:


1.  Barnbougle  [by a nose]
2.  Pacific Dunes
3.  Ballyneal
4.  Tara Iti
5.  Rock Creek
6.  Cape Kidnappers
7.  St. Andrews Beach




If you go back to the "Rank My Courses" thread from several years ago, the consensus here was that my lowest-rated courses were Charlotte GL and Black Forest [both now closed], and then The Legends (Heathland), Atlantic City CC, and Medinah #1.  Funny, because I was talking with Mike DeVries the other day, and he was reminiscing about how good The Legends is.

I really enjoyed Heathland in 1990ish(mentioned on another thread) long before I knew who Tom Doak was.I was working at Long Cove at the time which had some elements of Pete Dye's UK influence.(Ironically, years before when Tom was on the crew building Long Cove our paths may well have passed as I was doing grunt work at Hall's Landscaping bordering Long Cove's property)
Heathland was by far the best approximation/aesthetic of the links golf I had played(I had take my first trip across the pond a few years before).
Is Heathland going to win a match with Tara Iti or Barnbougle?-maybe not for many,but it started on a far inferior site and is a lot shorter drive! It's $45 after 12 on a Sunday!! and a really fun course to play.(disclaimer-haven't been back since early 2000's.

[Stewart Abramson]

Is Heathland going to win a match with Tara Iti or Barnbougle?-maybe not for many,but it started on a far inferior site and is a lot shorter drive! It's $45 after 12 on a Sunday!! and a really fun course to play.(disclaimer-haven't been back since early 2000's.

... and includes either a breakfast buffet or lunch and two beers.


Legends Heathland is still a fun round and great bang for the buck. Here are photos from four rounds from 2009 to 2019


https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157632020639241

[Steve Lang]

   Tom Doak, 


Black Forest will always be my #1 sentimental fav out of 9 played and one toured, my former summer camp home course, not played every day but once a week all the summers it was open when at Blue Lake...   Saw some raters get torn up playing there, so never surprised at whatever raters said...


ps Who was likely the guy on the dozer clearing the driving range???   Talked to him one day...  if nothing else it turned into some of the best berry picking spots along with the valley bushes in front of #1 tee...

[Tom_Doak]

  Tom Doak, 


Black Forest will always be my #1 sentimental fav out of 9 played and one toured, my former summer camp home course, not played every day but once a week all the summers it was open when at Blue Lake...   Saw some raters get torn up playing there, so never surprised at whatever raters said...


ps Who was likely the guy on the dozer clearing the driving range???   Talked to him one day...  if nothing else it turned into some of the best berry picking spots along with the valley bushes in front of #1 tee...

Gil Hanse, Mike DeVries and I did all of the shaping at Black Forest, but there was an older local guy who did a lot of the clearing and the pond construction -- it was probably him you met.  Can't think of his name right now.  Mike DeVries might remember if he sees this!

[Joe Bausch]

Best:
1. Ballyneal-The course flows very well, and just sits into the terrain so well. The green complexes are really good.
2. Barnbougle Dunes-The most challenging Doak course I’ve played. The bunkering is so well placed. The par 3s are quite good.
3. St. Andrews Beach-The course is so much different than BBDunes, but the use of the terrain is exquisite. I feel as if this would have been a more challenging routing to come up with, but it fits together really well.


Worst: Quail Crossing-The drainage is really bad, and of course conditioning has been an issue. The elements of Renaissance’s talent can be seen tantalizingly hidden beneath the ownership problems and proximity to a really good Fazio offering. It definitely fits into the category of “What could have been.” Heck they even removed the hole names from the scorecard. Who doesn’t want to play a hole named “Shinnecock” [size=78%]in Booneville, IN?[/size]

I’m hoping QC will come back strong.  It is just up the road from where i went to high school.


Here is how my eyes and camera saw the course back in 2008 when i was just starting my adventure!


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/QuailCrossing/index.html

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