Why put bunkers in landing area?

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
As I said, Forrest might chime in regarding Oakmont as his mentor Arthur Jack Snyder worked there and actually did some revisions to the course.  Forrest has a ton of really cool detailed information.  But in the meantime, if you have access to a copy of Oakmont’s 100 Years written by Marino Parascenzo, there is reference to the course having over 300 bunkers at one time.  Also in the book by John W. Stewart titled William Clark Fownes, Jr - The Man The Golfer The Leader (which is much harder to find) there is a specific reference to the 350 number.  Stewart stated that, “In the beginning, there was no water on the course but there were 21 drainage ditches for runoff and some 220 bunkers, a number that would grow to as many as 350.” 


It was a lot of bunkers at Oakmont and there still are close to 200.  But regardless, take a course like Whistling Straits which has 1000 or more depending what you count as a formal bunker (we know Dustin isn’t sure).  Is that one overbunkered 


Sean,
Weren't many of the original playing grounds basically one big sand pit?  They played over and round the sand dunes.  There was probably more sand than grass.  But either way, one thing I am sure of is that they didn't play golf anywhere that didn't contain "obstacles".  That was the whole point of the game and what made and kept it interesting - the obstacles.  It sure wasn't the putting back then as putting really wasn't a thing until formal greens were developed. 


Mike,
Two of my favorite quotes:


From Max Behr:


"The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct, and to make a good hole you must break up that line in order to create the one of charm."


From MacKenzie:


"The bunkers at St. Andrews are thus placed in positions where players are most likely to go - in fact, in the precise positions which the ordinary Green Committee would suggest be filled up."


"A hazard placed in the exact position where a player would naturally go is frequently the most interesting situation, as then a special effort is needed to get over or avoid it."

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
As I said, Forrest might chime in regarding Oakmont as his mentor Arthur Jack Snyder worked there and actually did some revisions to the course.  Forrest has a ton of really cool detailed information.  But in the meantime, if you have access to a copy of Oakmont’s 100 Years written by Marino Parascenzo, there is reference to the course having over 300 bunkers at one time.  Also in the book by John W. Stewart titled William Clark Fownes, Jr - The Man The Golfer The Leader (which is much harder to find) there is a specific reference to the 350 number.  Stewart stated that, “In the beginning, there was no water on the course but there were 21 drainage ditches for runoff and some 220 bunkers, a number that would grow to as many as 350.” 

Mark:


Both of those are latter day accounts.  The Stewart quote you provide is flawed, as the course did not open with 220 bunkers "in the beginning."


Sven

[Jim_Coleman]

   If the philosophy that a wayward tee shot should always leave a direct, playable shot to the green  were prevalent, golf would be less interesting and less beautiful.  Fortunately, the one person who seems to espouse this view doesn’t design golf courses.

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
You may be correct but note that Stewart said, "in the beginning" so that could have meant in the first ten years or, he didn't specify.  Forrest has a ton of info on Oakmont in his files.  I know for example he found a Jack Synder drawing from 1934 that has tiny little bunkers scattered all over many of which have disappeared over the years.  Remember Fownes like to dig holes and make bunkers of any size anywhere he thought golfers were hitting shots.  I am sure you know the Sam Snead bunker story     Again, we are not here to prove Oakmont had 350 bunkers or 250 at the peak, we will never know for sure but it was a lot.  It is not the point of this thread. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Mark:


Perhaps it doesn’t matter to you, but the perpetuation of myths and contrafactual information is an issue for me, especially when its conveyed by authorities or those that could be perceived as authorities on an issue.


Sven

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
I agree and will ask Forrest to chime in but if you know for sure the exact answer please post it.  I told you want we had found and believed to be true. As you know from doing research, fact checking can be endless.  I provided two references that I had easy access to.  One would hope they checked their facts as well or they wouldn’t have published what they did.  I will ping Forrest now but I think he is like me and not in his office with access to all his files.  I will check.   

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
I just got a email from Forrest.  He actually thinks the number is 380 I think he is in LA so not at his office but I asked him if he could site references and post when he has time. 

I was just looking through my phone (amazing how much info is on there) and I found some all notes referencing numerous calls with people like Kurt Fuhrer.  Emil Loeffler just so happened to be Kurt’s grandmother’s (Marie) brother.  Kurt knew a lot about his great uncle.  I also spoke with Bill Stitt who is Emil's nephew and who actually worked at Oakmont with Emil for four years.  These guys were a wealth of information but even in this case we are testing their memories from a long time ago.  Some pretty cool stories. 

[Ira Fishman]

As to the topic posed in the OP, I recommend Ian Andrew's essay on his website. It expands and expounds some of the quotes/thoughts offered above.


Ira

[William_G]

Bunkers only affect a small number of players. They require maintenance. Why not just have grass options to affect everyone?

Sheep Ranch ve. Bandon Dunes

[mike_malone]

Bunkers only affect a small number of players. They require maintenance. Why not just have grass options to affect everyone?

Sheep Ranch ve. Bandon Dunes

Which is which?

[Forrest Richardson]

I'm not sure it matters if Oakmont had 312 bunkers (which appears here on GCA), or the 350 range. Arthur A. Snyder, father of my mentor, Arthur J. Snyder, worked for Henry Fownes in 1907 and built several per month while he was on the crew. Arthur often told me they would built several every month, and Mr. Fownes would keep adding them. Who knows? There is a great photo on the wall at East Lake, presented to bobby Jones, that shows a massive amount of bunkers...from the 1930s as I recall.

At Peacock Gap's 18th hole (San Rafael, CA) I placed a small bunker about 235 yards from the tee, in the center of the landing area between the left edge of the dog-leg par-4 and a linear canal hazard at the right. The new owner did not like this at all, complaining that "it was right in the middle of the fairway", to which I said he had many options — play short of it, play left, try to out-hit it...or, take the dangerous route to thread the needle between the bunker and the canal at the right. He insisted that he 'always went into the bunker." I think my reply was perhaps not ideal when I sad, "Wow, that's a consistent game..."

[Sven Nilsen]

I'm not sure it matters if Oakmont had 312 bunkers (which appears here on GCA), or the 350 range. Arthur A. Snyder, father of my mentor, Arthur J. Snyder, worked for Henry Fownes in 1907 and built several per month while he was on the crew. Arthur often told me they would built several every month, and Mr. Fownes would keep adding them. Who knows? There is a great photo on the wall at East Lake, presented to bobby Jones, that shows a massive amount of bunkers...from the 1930s as I recall.

Forrest:


Could you direct me to where that 312 number on GCA comes from?


The Arthur Snyder story jibes with the early history of the course.  I'd surmise the biggest period of building bunkers at Oakmont was between 1905 and 1912.  1912 is the date given for when the initial bunkering scheme was completed. 


The June 10, 2007 article by Ron Whitten found in this link gives a bit more detail to the Snyder story -


https://www.espn.com/golf/usopen07/news/story?id=2899873


Whitten also discusses the bunker number myth in that article:





Here are a few contemporaneous reports on the number of bunkers:


Sept. 3, 1905 Pittsburgh Post -









Feb. 1912 American Golfer -






Sept. 1915 American Golfer -





Aug. 1925 Golf Illustrated -





June 5, 1927 Pittsburgh Press -





May 1931 Golf Illustrated -





Dec. 11, 1937 Buffalo Courier-Express -





A few images to give you an idea of the number of bunkers -


Aug. 10, 1919 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -





1926 Dallin Aerial -





June 13, 1927  The Evening Sun -





1927 Aerial -





1938 Aerial -

[Sven Nilsen]

Apologize for the thread jack, but there are some thoughts derived from what happened at Oakmont with respect to the question at hand. There were very few landing zone hazards at Oakmont, if by landing zone you mean the middle of the fairway.  The theory espoused by the Fownes and Loeffler was that a offline drive should be punished, with the punishment coming in the form of a bunker lie.  What they did with the surfaces of those bunkers to ensure a full shot penalty is another story.


In antithesis to the Oakmont system, Mackenzie preferred to delay the punishment for a missed shot until one got closer to the green.  An offline shot was punished with a tougher angle to get on the green.  By placing bunkers in the landing zones, Mackenzie and others created  risk reward choices.  A confident player could take on the hazard with the goal of achieving the optimal angle into the green.  Early Augusta National had a number of these types of fairway bunkers, many of which are gone now or obsolete for the game we see televised from that course.


I like to think Ross had the right attitude for answering the original question - "There's the golf hole, play it anyway you please." 


Sven

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
Mike can speak up but I don’t think he meant just in the middle of the fairway.  Did you ever play Oakmont?  I have many times.  There are many bunkers that are basically in the middle of the fairway/definitely in the landing area (at least they sure look and play that way off the tee) 

[mike_malone]

Sven,
Mike can speak up but I don’t think he meant just in the middle of the fairway.  Did you ever play Oakmont?  I have many times.  There are many bunkers that are basically in the middle of the fairway/definitely in the landing area (at least they sure look and play that way off the tee) 

I did not just mean in the middle of the fairway. I mean at the distances of drives.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
Mike can speak up but I don’t think he meant just in the middle of the fairway.  Did you ever play Oakmont?  I have many times.  There are many bunkers that are basically in the middle of the fairway/definitely in the landing area (at least they sure look and play that way off the tee) 

I did not just mean in the middle of the fairway. I mean at the distances of drives.

I caddie for a living.  There is no such thing as "distances of drives."  If there was, that would be a really big bunker.

[William_G]

Bunkers only affect a small number of players. They require maintenance. Why not just have grass options to affect everyone?

Sheep Ranch ve. Bandon Dunes

LOL


Which is which?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
Mike can speak up but I don’t think he meant just in the middle of the fairway.  Did you ever play Oakmont?  I have many times.  There are many bunkers that are basically in the middle of the fairway/definitely in the landing area (at least they sure look and play that way off the tee) 

Mark:


Appearance aside, Oakmont is the poster child for a course with bunkers lining the sides of the fairways.  I stand by my point on the difference between the Oakmont school and the Augusta National school. 


Sven

[Forrest Richardson]

Sven:  https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/oakmont/

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:  https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/oakmont/

Forrest -


Pretty easy to see how these types of myths get perpetuated.  There were a lot of bunkers, but there were not 312 of them.


Sven

[Mark_Fine]

Sven,
The Fownes school if there was such a thing was put a bunker wherever golfers hit it    You do know the Sam Snead story don’t you which I know to be true. Again, if Fownes had a school he and Loeffler built bunkers everywhere.  The second hole for example has a bunker in the center of the fairway right where you would want to hit a drive.  You have to either layup short and in doing so also avoid the ditch left or try to carry over the center fairway bunker.  No other real option.  There are multiple holes at Oakmont where you need to carry over bunkers/cross hazards or else play away from the hole or lay back short or take a much longer route.  Those bunkers are definitely in the landing area (just the way Fownes wanted them).  If he thought bunkers were no longer in play or golfers were hitting past or over them he added more (and often left the old ones too). Part of the idea of the Church Pews was to catch everyone not just the long hitters. If you stand on the par five #4 tees the pews are staring you right in the face and if they scare you then you can try to hit right and carry what you can of a series of eschlon bunkers.  There are many other cross hazards that must be carried as well or again you need to play short of or around and away from the direct line to the hole.  I don’t know what school that is but that is Oakmont. It surely is not just hit it straight as far as you can and there is a clear path to the hole.  That path is broken up a lot.


As to the actual number of bunkers, who really knows.  When I talked to Bill Stitt (who worked with Loeffler at Oakmont for four years) I recall he didn’t even know a number but said there were a ridiculous amount and it was changing all the time. 


How many bunkers are there at Whistling Straits?  There are lots of guesses but who really knows (maybe the super) and unlike The Straits course, the number at Oakmont was changing constantly.  Forrest may share more but we all should be able to agree the number of bunkers at Oakmont was a lot and it varied constantly and they were clearly in the landing area which is what this thread was all about.  In some ways Oakmont is bunkered much like Merion - lots of bunkers in the landing areas and deep ones as well. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Mark:


Ron Whitten counted the bunkers at Whistling Straits a number of years ago by marking each of them.  He came up with 967.  If he could count that high, I'm sure someone could have counted the much smaller number that were at Oakmont.


Fownes (or Loeffler) did not put bunkers wherever a golfer hit it, they put it where a golfer hit an offline drive and ended up with a decent shot.  There's a difference.


As for the second hole there, you and I can agree to disagree on what the middle of the fairway means.  At Oakmont the bunkers flank the fairways, including all of the bunkers you mentioned at the 5th.  Just because the fairway they ask you to hit is narrow doesn't mean the bunkers are in the middle of it.


Sven

[jeffwarne]

Sven,
Mike can speak up but I don’t think he meant just in the middle of the fairway.  Did you ever play Oakmont?  I have many times.  There are many bunkers that are basically in the middle of the fairway/definitely in the landing area (at least they sure look and play that way off the tee) 

I did not just mean in the middle of the fairway. I mean at the distances of drives.

I caddie for a living.  There is no such thing as "distances of drives."  If there was, that would be a really big bunker.

Truer words were never spoken.
And for the most part, I would assume Bandon golfers are serious enough to be "better than most"

[Niall C]

To play devil's advocate, perhaps Mike plays at one of those courses where there is no run, the wind never blows and every hole has numerous tees so that everyone can pick a tee that allows them to land their tee shot in a defined area. Sort of paint by numbers for golf.


Niall

[Mark_Fine]

Sam Snead’s Bunker at Oakmont - The occasion was a one-day Big Four war bond tournament in the summer of 1945, involving Snead, Harold McSpadon, Byron Nelson, and Gene Sarazen.  W.C. and Loeffler had decided that spring to put in a new bunker on the seventh hole - as if 10 or a dozen or more that were already there were not enough - in honor of the tournament.  During a practice round, Snead “cleared" the new bunker and birdied the hole.  Afterward Loeffler called Fownes at his summer home in Cape Cod and told him what happened.  W.C. asked Loeffler if there was any way they could build a new bunker “in the landing area” over night, to which the Loeffler responded, “I thought you’d say that sir" adding that he had made arrangements to do just that.  Thus in the glow of automobile headlights, a hole was dug and the new bunker put in place where Snead’s drive had landed.  The next morning Snead came to the 7th, took out his driver and proceeded to drive his ball in the same spot as before.  When he came up the hill and looked for his ball, he was shocked what he saw.  His ball was in the middle of the bunker that seemed to appear by magic.  Obviously, a little unstrung by this, he went on to bogey the hole. 


Fownes and Loeffler built bunkers in more places than just where "bad" shots ended up that is for sure.  Snead's shot was a perfect shot and they built a bunker there.  They were changing that course constantly as they saw how the course was played.  And as far as what you call middle of the fairway way bunkers; if a hazard stretches out half way across a fairway and has fairway beyond it, you can call it what you want but it clearly is a hazard “in the fairway”.  If that one you show on #2 doesn’t count we can just agree to disagree.  It is in "the direct line of play" as are many others at Oakmont.  Yes Oakmont has many flanking hazards, but the course has hazards everywhere not just along the sides.  That is my point.  Those bunkers for example left on #17 you might call flanking bunkers but many including me will call them carry bunkers as they are in the direct line to the hole, a lime that many golfers are tempted to try to take.  If you call those bunkers jutting way out into the fairway on #12 "flanking bunkers", again we will just agree to disagree.  They are bunkers in the middle of the fairway that you either carry or go around.  Look at some of the early renderings and aerials and you will see many bunkers were even more in the fairway than Fazio put them as they are now.