[Tom Birkert]

Personally, it's about making you feel welcome.


Great staff who want a guest to enjoy themselves.
Great members who are proud to show off their course.


Personally I prefer a relaxed, informal environment and despite having been fortunate enough to play the majority of the most well known courses, I've found that most great clubs intrinsically are at ease with themselves (through their membership, staff and course) and this translates over very well and makes guests feel comfortable. In effect, they don't have to "try hard" because they know they've got "it". The sort of place where different groups end up sitting together in the bar after a round, the sort of place where you'll meet interesting people who love golf.


On a purely golfing front, it must be walkable (and strongly encouraged), caddies should be available, and the pace of play should be quick.

[Zac Blair]

Some thoughts on what me and my team hoping to do at the 🌲 farm


Above all else, build a FUN golf course where people want to keep playing. And always look forward to coming back.


Quick pace of play (not forcing people to run around and not finish out, but getting people to understand the importance of proper pace of play - only 3 minutes to look for your brand new ProV1 😂).

Walkable (easy green to tee transitions, they don’t all have to be 5 yards off the back of the green - sometimes a nice walk meandering through the trees to get to the next is enjoyable). 




Friendly staff where everyone feels welcome.


Areas to socialize (inside and out).


Simple but great F&B (don’t need the Cheesecake Factory menu, I actually love the Prix Fixe menu setup at OMC[size=78%]). [/size]
[/size]
Everything you need, nothing you don’t accommodations. With good beds, showers, sheets and towels.


Simple turn house with some good snacks and drinks + maybe 1 staple item special to the club (but doesn’t need to be over the top discovery land every 3-4 holes with different themed comfort stations)


Making sure the whole setup is efficient and easy for people to get from one area to another (pro shop to first tee, 18 green to the bar).


Caddies that are available, but not ALWAYS required (to me there is nothing worse than wanting to go play a quick loop and being forced to take a caddie).


Lodging in close proximity to the clubhouse, but not necessarily stacked along 1 or 18 (nothing like being able to stroll out of your room and head to the clubhouse for a quick bite before the round).


Simple locker room with great showers and a place to hang a coat or leave some shoes.


A great Bar + Grill Room where everyone can socialize and hang out. Long tables where multiple groups can eat together. 


Small pro shop with quality merchandise (need to hammer the essentials and not go overboard on the random patterns and items).


Some cool club events throughout the year that the membership really takes interest in (members week, member-member, member-guest, club championship).


Like I mentioned in the beginning, the golf is priority #1 ... but the experience is also really important Bc it can elevate the place as a whole. Thanks for all the input from everyone. I’m glad to see my ideas aren’t too far off.

[Marty Bonnar]

Zac,
Beginning to sound like a very decent proposition.

As a canny, frugal Scot, can I please make a heartfelt plea to keep the whole thing AFFORDABLE.
I’m not necessarily saying CHEAP, just within the reach of the common man (or woman).
Best wishes and Happy Hogmanay!
F.

[Steve Lang]

   How do I sign up to be national member of the Tree Farm?  I have a chain saw...


Also, short walk from 18th green to 1st tee, like at the Kingsley Club... hey you're the architect, make it happen!


Don't forget the multi-purpose open wall roofed pavilion for a little protection from the elements for a large group of folks or just the regulars sprawling out before or after a game.  Scoreboard at front, bar at the back, and where tables can be set up in between

[jeffwarne]

IDEAL

Routed to be easily walked

Tees near greens, very few if any walk back tees, basically for very strong players looking for added challenge which includes a carry and or difficult angle. Never make average Joe walk back

Start and finish in front of the house

At least two starting points of different hole numbers ie 12/6 or 13/5 etc creates boozer loops

If it makes sense, public accessible paths thru course and the land perhaps used for other purposes beside golf

For privates routing allows for cutting out holes back to the house

No more than 3 sets of tees ideally in the main to take advantage of different angles or give options to avoid harsh carries

Small, but comfortable house

As little friction between the car and 1st tee as possible, few staff

Basic food made from high quality ingredients

Small selection of booze, beer and wine that can change

Breakfast and lunch only except for the odd occasion

No table service during known slow times, folks can walk to the bar to order

Good outside seating that is heated if necessary

Small locker room with a few showers

Competitions kept to a minimum to encourage friendly, fast golf

If private early times reserved for 2 ball play unless not filled

Happy Hockey

That's a great list.
One of the best things about my three weeks in Australia is nearly every restaurant I dined in, we ordered at the bar.
Speeds up the process considerably and makes so much more sense.
Very common in the UK/Ireland as well.

[Joe Hellrung]

Hi Zac,

My thoughts are as follows:

- Don't overcharge a guest financially while on property, especially if the club location is remote - The business model should be to extract a fair profit from a repeat guest over 3 decades, not to squeeze every penny out of 3 days. I'll never forget being charged $5.75 for a diet coke at a certain well known resort that is pretty far away from any other dining/accommodations and thinking that I'd never go back. 

- A comfortable place to watch groups come up 18.  Think the 18th on #2 at Pinehurst, where a sculled approach might land in someone's soup.  I loved the experience both as a player and spectator.

- A menu with a couple original items.  Give your chef some freedom to come up with his/her own signature app/entre/drink etc.  There are countless examples of at private and public clubs around the country, but it is something I always look forward to after a round.   

- As others have mentioned, pace of play is critical. 

- It is tough to get this right, and I don't have  fix for it, but doing something to eliminate the feeling that you are part of a golf machine.  I've been to several places where you feel like you are just being shuttled through the day - breakfast bar, check-in at the shop, pound balls for 20 minutes, play golf, repeat - along with about 200 other guys.  Not sure why it feels different at some places than others, but some places it feels pretty mechanical. 

- If possible, make the first tee walkable from the range/practice facility. 

Would love to get some opinions on what are the key aspects to providing a great golf experience?
Obviously the golf itself has to be great ... but there are some many other things in play that can elevate your experience while visiting somewhere.

[Carl Rogers]

Pacific Dunes ..... Walk from the 3rd green to the 4th tee.


First time playing Tobacco Road on the first tee (wow this is a HOOT!)


Ballyhack, overnight stay, watching the goats roaming the 18th fairway at sunrise, meeting Darius Oliver & the general club vibe w/ Wade Whitehead's crazy quiz questions & et al at the George Cup.


Hanging out with Tom Doak & Team for 3 days at the Bay of Dreams.

[Zac Blair]

Zac,
Beginning to sound like a very decent proposition.

As a canny, frugal Scot, can I please make a heartfelt plea to keep the whole thing AFFORDABLE.
I’m not necessarily saying CHEAP, just within the reach of the common man (or woman).
Best wishes and Happy Hogmanay!
F.

I would love your thoughts one what “within the reach” means?

[Carl Rogers]

(delete)

[Paul Jones]

It starts with the employees.  The couple of times I have been to Bel-Air, the staff went over the top to make me feel welcome.  I mentioned that to the member and he said the rule is we treat our employees like family and they treat our guest the best, since guest are most important.

[Paul Jones]

Outside of great staff, the course needs to be fun.  I am sure more people would like to play another 18 after playing a fun course, compared to playing a course that just beat you up.


I think of caddies as a treat, I always like to take a caddie when possible.  However, people that are members of clubs that require caddies, might not want a caddie - should not be mandatory. 


Everything should be on property, no need to leave for lodging, good food, wine, drinks, cigars, outdoor seating.


Don't have too many rules, nothing worst then a member having to list everything you should or should not do.


Lodging should have options, you can stay in a dorm room upstairs for cheap or rent out 8 bedroom cottage for $$$$$ - similar to PV and Laurel Valley.


Members and Guest will want to come back if they feel like they are getting a good deal, no one wants sticker shock after a fun long weekend.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think a great experience can be judged by whether every time you finish 18 you want to go back out and play again and how long would you want to spend at the location.  Took a trip last year to Wisconsin and part of the trip was Sand Valley where both courses certainly meet this test and the vibe of the place was great.  Another big plus was that the courses are walking only.

[Mike Hendren]

A modest (1600 sf) free-standing golf shop with two restrooms and small honesty fridge set in an alcove.  Complimentary water and ice dispenser (must be crushed).    Shop has 270 degrees view and covered veranda (wooden plank flooring) on three sides with tables and chairs (cushioned and comfy, none of that Adirondack crap).  The rear of the shop a windowless wall that is accessible directly from the contiguous parking lot (pea gravel) through a thick screening hedge.   The first tee is 10 paces out the front of the shop and extension of the practice field. The putting green is 10 paces from one side of the golf shop.  Half of the putting green is available for pitching.


All in an intimate set-up that's a great place to hang.   No traipsing  around necessary.  Put the car in park and on the tee or practice facilities in 2 minutes. 


As for the course, interesting greens.

[Tom_Doak]

I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.

I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that.  Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary.  Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla.  Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.


Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable.  An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.


Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac,    the most important employee is the golf course superintendent.  Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.

P.S.  Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do.  If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.

[Thomas Dai]

.... the most important employee is the golf course superintendent.  Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.

+1
Atb

[David Amarnek]

Personally, it's about making you feel welcome.


Great staff who want a guest to enjoy themselves.
Great members who are proud to show off their course.


Personally I prefer a relaxed, informal environment and despite having been fortunate enough to play the majority of the most well known courses, I've found that most great clubs intrinsically are at ease with themselves (through their membership, staff and course) and this translates over very well and makes guests feel comfortable. In effect, they don't have to "try hard" because they know they've got "it". The sort of place where different groups end up sitting together in the bar after a round, the sort of place where you'll meet interesting people who love golf.


On a purely golfing front, it must be walkable (and strongly encouraged), caddies should be available, and the pace of play should be quick.

I'd like to offer Gulph Mills as an excellent example of what Tom describes.

[Sean_A]

A 2 ball club sounds wonderful, but in practice can be a difficult enterprise in a place like the US where 4somes is not played. The membership would have to be so small that the membership/greenfee would be unduly expensive. I recall going over the numbers for the Sacred 9 and thinking if there were more than 44 golfers on the course it would seem packed and that is assuming everybody was playing 4somes. The idea works if the local membership is relatively small and there is a healthy country membership to offset costs. Is there a market In US for such a place?

Happy Hockey

[Kalen Braley]

Zac,
Beginning to sound like a very decent proposition.

As a canny, frugal Scot, can I please make a heartfelt plea to keep the whole thing AFFORDABLE.
I’m not necessarily saying CHEAP, just within the reach of the common man (or woman).
Best wishes and Happy Hogmanay!
F.

I would love your thoughts one what “within the reach” means?

I'll take a stab at this..

This is the rate sheet for Bandon courses. IMO, the December - February rates are "within reach" for most, while peak season rates June-October...not so much.

https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/2020-green-fees

[Peter Pallotta]

You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
On the one hand, there's hardly an idea or suggestion that I don't agree with; I think I'd enjoy the ideal experience you all describe.
On the other hand, I'm taken aback and left numbly disoriented: I can't believe we've all come so far as to need and want *so very much* from a golf course, and from the experience of a game.
These clubs-courses we so want and so lovingly describe: have we reached the high point for the game of golf, or the low point? Are we seeing the flowering and crowning glory of the renaissance, or is it the beginning of the end?
[Rhetorical Questions, based on my unsettled disorientation; no answer required]
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.

[Pete_Pittock]

Fire pit.  Great socializer after play.  Really appreciated on a cold morning.
Short-game practice area which you can access without needing to use GPS.

[Jeff Schley]

If you are staring a new place, IMO filing a niche and making it unique would give you an advantage. In the USA foursomes aren’t common, but would really enjoy a club that required 2 balls a couple days a week in the mornings at least. It requires socializing as a team as a foursome format or an intimate round as a match head to head. Love Royal St George’s for this reason. Doesn’t have to be every day all day, but having this as something to look forward to during your long weekend would make it unique. Perhaps a Friday or Monday to sandwich around the weekend.




Intimate housing on site that is walking distance from clubhouse. Comfortable beds, with nice linens. Patios with fire pits, big screens with some sports, maybe barrels of peanuts or popcorn machine etc. would be relaxing. Pretty laid back atmosphere if you throw your peanut shells on the floor. 


Great locker room area with nice showers, towels, a place to get a drink and relax for a few minutes. Locker room attendant is usually a key member of the private club staff. For a private club he is a forward face to your guests adn key to making their experience a great one.




I really like having a well stocked halfway or 1/3 of the way snack shacks. Having to slow down your round adn take a few minutes to relax a la Maidstone is great adn welcome in a key location. Another cool place was Sunningdale, or Cathedral Lodge in Australia.




I know everyone loves walking on here and I do as well, but for 36 hole days for multiple days a week would wear me out and my dad. So having carts would allow for quick afternoon or twilight rounds.




I’m surprised no one has mentioned a 9 hole par 3 course. I think this will continue to grow in popularity with kids and beginners loving it.


Good luck.

[Ira Fishman]

I have been lucky to get to see it all, across many different cultures.

I got to many places through the back door / side door as a twenty-something student, and I learned a lot from that.  Most of the things clubs do to create a great "experience" for guests are entirely unnecessary.  Like, the lobster for lunch at The National is great [and I absolutely love lobster], but when I'd go there in the off-season and the professional and the caddiemaster were up for a pleasant chat and then went and watched me hit off #1, arguably that was a BETTER experience than all the hoopla.  Some places insist on putting on a show for you, others treat everyone like they belong there.


Some of the preceding comments require a whole lot of $taffing, and if you're not a golf factory with a lot of players every day, having staff to cater to everyone's whims is going to make the place unprofitable.  An operation like Stonewall where a few people do everything is hard to beat, but it also requires that members are comfortable enough to do some things for themselves instead of having someone at their beck and call.


Also, since no one has mentioned it yet, including Zac,    the most important employee is the golf course superintendent.  Having a guy who grows good grass is one thing; having one who also loves the game and sets up the golf course appropriately is worth its weight in gold.

P.S.  Everyone talks about avoiding slow play, but it's hard to do.  If someone had the stones to be a two-ball club like Brancaster or Rye, I would join in a heartbeat.

Woking.


Ira

[Joe Hancock]

You know, I re-read this thread and every post, and had quite an unsettled reaction:
On the one hand, there's hardly an idea or suggestion that I don't agree with; I think I'd enjoy the ideal experience you all describe.
On the other hand, I'm taken aback and left numbly disoriented: I can't believe we've all come so far as to need and want *so very much* from a golf course, and from the experience of a game.
These clubs-courses we so want and so lovingly describe: have we reached the high point for the game of golf, or the low point? Are we seeing the flowering and crowning glory of the renaissance, or is it the beginning of the end?
[Rhetorical Questions, based on my unsettled disorientation; no answer required]
In any event, I do find myself now wanting more than ever to live in very close proximity to 'an average English golf course'. A Doak 4 or 5, where I could get a breakfast bap. I'll take a shower when I get home.

Peter,


The conflict you’re dealing with, I believe, is that what you think is ideal, is a course, nearby, where, without fuss, you drive to, unload your clubs, play a thoughtfully designed course with some lovely chaps, then return home to your loving family. What is being described here is far from that....it is a destination that fits a fairly narrow set of ideals (and pocketbooks). It is the Keiser model, re-implemented to feel distinctive, yet everything I’ve read is a list of conditions that already exist.....nothing wrong with any of this, but you’re a homebody who would greatly appreciate what others are experiencing, but would have to travel for it.


In thinking further about this, I’m not so sure that the destination makes the travel worthwhile, it might be the effort of the travel has a direct impact on the perception of the destination....if that makes any sense.

[Tom_Doak]

I'll take a shower when I get home.

As the secretary at The Berkshire reportedly used to tell overseas visitors complaining about the locker room, "The members bathe at their castles."


Happy New Year!

[Carl Rogers]

Forgot to mention discovering Riverfront 12 minutes from home.

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