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Dan Herrmann

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Ault, Clark & Associates
« on: November 09, 2003, 10:31:54 AM »
Just wondering what people think of Ault, Clark & Associates' work.  

They've done Wyncote (Oxford PA) and TPC @ Avenel.

They've also done a lot of muni/daily fee work.  




DTaylor18

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2003, 10:47:34 AM »
Dan, that's a great question.  I was wondering the same thing the other day as I was looking at a list of a lot of the courses in the Baltimore area.  Hopefully some people will chime in and let us know.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2003, 12:26:44 PM »
Wasn't Wyncoat finished by the owner/developer after a falling out with Ault & Clark? I know they used their routing.

Mark Fine will know this.

Craig Disher

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Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2003, 12:49:56 PM »
I haven't heard many favorable comments from local golfers on Avenel. It certainly isn't a favorite of mine but I don't think it's representative of A/C's work generally. At Avenel, their instructions must have been to construct a spectator-friendly course and from that perspective they succeeded well. It's a great place to watch golf but given the trouble the sponsors have had bringing out top pros to the Kemper and its successors (having it so close to the US Open has been a problem), the pros probably aren't thrilled with it either.

I have some comments on other A/C work in the DC area - I'll post them later.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2003, 02:10:49 PM »
I'm sure a lot of people associate Avenel with Ault & Clark because it hosts a Tour event, but I don't think it's too representative of their work.  It was a pet project of Deane Beman's when he was still Tour commissioner, and the Tour staff had a ton of "input" into the finished product.  

David Postlethwait, who worked for Pete Dye for years and who had been the construction superintendent for TPC / Sawgrass, was also the construction manager for Avenel, which is why parts of it look more like a Dye course than Ault's.

I've never spoken with Tom Clark or Brian Ault about Avenel, but a couple of other architects have told me that their own designs for those early TPC courses were heavily edited by the Tour, and they weren't very happy about it.

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2003, 05:28:57 PM »
absolutely love their course at the jersey shore, ballamor, a lot of good strategic holes, really a good solid golf course.
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

wsmorrison

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2003, 05:58:48 PM »
Ault and Clark redid 3 holes at the Country Club of Harrisburg (1916 Flynn).  It is some of the worst redesign work I have ever seen on a classic course.  They said during the interview process that they wanted to finally get the chance to work on a Flynn course.  Little did they realize that they had previously.

Ault and Clark redid the greens at Sewels Point (formerly Norfolk CC) never realizing or researching that it was a Flynn course they were working on.  Cornish and Whitten state that it was done by Donald Ross and redesigned by William Flynn.  Perhaps Ross enlarged the 1909 9-hole course to 18 holes in 1915.  In 1923 the club bought more land and Flynn did a complete redesign of the course a mere 8 years after Ross, a pattern we see quite a number of times.  Although Flynn indicated the use of a great deal of undulating sandy waste areas, they either were not built or more likely not maintained during the depression and lost.  Otherwise, the course today is exactly according to the Flynn designs.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2003, 05:59:39 PM by wsmorrison »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2003, 10:17:59 PM »
I pigeonhole (with broad license) Ault/Clark's work into three periods - new course design by Ed Ault in the 60s-70s, renovation in the 80s-early 90s by the firm reorganized as Ault/Clark, and recently new course design - particularly high-end daily fee courses. I haven't seen their work outside the DC area but they've done so much here that I believe it must be representative.

The early courses were munis and mid-range resorts. The designs were pedestrian - large flat greens flanked by oval bunkers, an occasional fairway bunker, unimaginative use of land - but immensely popular. Falls Road and Northwest Park are good examples from this era.

Their renovation work was also forgettable and much of it has been forgotten in the past few years (Chevy Chase Club, Congressional, Bethesda, my old club, Manor have or are in the process of re-renovating A/C's work). Oval bunkers were replaced with cats-eye shapes; mounding was also popular.

The new courses are very much in line with high-end, non-minimalist modern design. Several courses in the area - Worthington Manor, Clustered Spires, Cross Creek, South River - have tried to tap into the mid-upper fee market. They all have their moments and can be good value but for a memorable golf experience, I have a hard time distinguishing them from courses designed by other architects in this area - Art Hills, for example.

I will echo Wayne's comment on Harrisburg CC. Their redesign stands out like a sore thumb, to coin a phrase.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2003, 01:15:06 AM »
A great review Craig--I understand precisely what you are talking about! :)

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2003, 10:44:27 AM »
You can't live in the DC area without tripping over courses by Ed Ault, Brian Ault or Tom Clark. My home club, Hidden Creek (Reston, VA) along with Reston National are both Ed Ault designs from the 1960s. Most of the munis in Montgomery County, MD are Ault designs or redesigns as is the muni in Herndon, VA and Algonkian, one of the Northern Virginia Park Authority courses. It seems like in the 60s Ed Ault delivered a lot of the kind of courses that helped the game grow - decent munis and affordable publics.

Of more recent Ault/Clark vintage are:

Penderbrook in Fairfax
Pleasant Valley (Brian Clark - Chantilly, VA)
Lee's Hill (Brian Clark, Fredericksburg, VA).
Dauphin Highlands in Harrisburg, PA (where I grew up!)

I hate Penderbrook as it is crammed in a condo/townhouse development. Pleasant Valley is a fun course to play with some good holes. Great walking course too. Lee's Hill is an intereting course that suffered from poor conditioning the times I played it. It lays low in a creek bed and gets muddy easily. Supposedly they closed the course earlier in the summer, fixed the drainage and reseeded with a newer bermuda grass. I heard it's much better now.

My overriding impression of the courses I've played are that they deliver what the developer and the public wants at a mid/mid-upper prices. Nothing outstanding, but not offensive either.

In "The Confidential Guiide...") Doak ripped one of their courses (in Newport News, VA I believe) as one of the worst he's ever seen.

Their website is www.acagolf.com.

TimT

JohnV

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2003, 12:22:54 PM »
Ault & Clark did the new 9 at my home course of Hannastown in Greensburg PA.  The existing 9 was done by Emil Loeffler in 1919 and they were told to keep the flavor similar.  While it is obvious which 9 holes are the original and which are the new, I think they did a good job on the new 9, in particular keeping the greens interesting and challanging.  While their greens feature more overall movement as opposed to slope, they do keep the putting challenge similar.

They also did Birdsfoot which is a new public course just north of Pittsburgh that was discussed here a while back.  It is a good course, although the routing gets a little dangerous at time.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2003, 12:46:28 PM »
I can't comment on any of their original designs, but the Ault/Clark bunker work that was redone on my home course Tavistock CC many years ago is #$@$*..."not good".   ;)

Thankfully Ron Forse & Co. have been brought in to restore and correct the past trangressions.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2003, 12:56:43 PM by JSlonis »

tck

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2003, 02:23:42 PM »
I agree that Ault Clark courses tend not to provide many memorable holes or design features that stick with you, but they are playable and are adequate for the land provided to them.  In the Washington, D.C. area Cross Creek was forced into an area better left to the wetlands and "reforestation areas" that surround the fairways and green.  The holes themselves, unfortunately, are forgettable.  South River also seems to be forced into a development with significant distances between holes and holes routed around properties.  However, Worthington Manor is a very good daily-fee layout where Ault Clark had a little more to work with and their abilities shine, especially on holes 3, 12 and 16.

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2003, 02:32:37 PM »
Jamie,

I used to live in Haddonfield and played at Tavistock numerous times with my wife's grandfather, a long time member. It was my first private club experience and forever changed my outlook on golf. It would be seven or so years later before I had the opportunity and means to join a private club myself, but the seeds were laid at Tavistock.

I miss my grandfather-in-law and I miss the opportunity to play Tavistock. He had a stunning framed photo of the 14th hole that he took and developed himself. I am going to ask my wife's grandmother if I can have it someday.

We still visit Haddonfield several times a year and we always drive by Tavistock just for the memories.

TimT

I can't comment on any of their original designs, but the Ault/Clark bunker work that was redone on my home course Tavistock CC many years ago is #$@$*..."not good".   ;)

Thankfully Ron Forse & Co. have been brought in to restore and correct the past trangressions.



Bill Gayne

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Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2003, 09:04:15 PM »
I've played three Ault Clark courses in southeastern Virginia. The three courses are Cahoon Plantation (Chesapeake), Kiln Creek (Newport News), and Newport News Park. The first two were built on less than desirable land and probably on a low budget. Newport News Park is a better peice of land than the other two (hard woods with some elevation changes)  but still with probably a limited building and maintenance budget. None of these courses I would make an extra effort to play given the other options.

So who plays and enjoys these courses? In the case of Cahoon and Newport News park, if you show up on any summer day the place is packed is with kids and seniors. The golf is cheap, it's a meeting place, walking is allowed, and Mom's feel okay leaving their kids at these courses. These two courses are probably a good place for kids to have cheap fun and learn how to swing a club and hopefully develop a greater interest in the game.

As far as who plays and enjoys Kiln Creek? Kiln Creek is a semi private housing tract with very cheap memberships. If you don't want to spend the money on the James River Club or one of the Williamsburg courses you end up at Kiln Creek. It has a lot of families.

I also think Curtis Strange has done some work with them as a PD on the TPC of Virginia Beach. They may have had a hand in Brickshire.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 11:48:03 AM by Bill Gayne »

Tony_Chapman

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Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2003, 05:59:21 PM »
Ault and Clark handled the redesign of Beatrice CC in Nebraska and it is top notch. Beatrice CC was an original Tom Bendelow (I think) course on about 90 acres of land. The club acquired some new property that has made the course a top course in the state (behind only Sand Hills, Wild Horse and Firethorn in my opinion).

They redesigned the entire place, combining holes and built at least 8 new holes. The course hosted the state amateur this past summer and consistently host the local qualifying for the US Open in the summer.

JohnV

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2003, 08:30:16 AM »
I really liked their Wyncote, but I am not nominating it for anyone's top 100 list.  It probably would be considered decent or better by most here.

And there is nothing wrong with that.  Not every course can be a top 100 or even should aspire to it.  Too many courses (architects) are trying to be top 100 and because of that they spend fortunes which costs us fortunes.  Hannastown costs me $1600 a year to play a very challenging and serviceable course that doesn't care about being a top 100 course.  If that is what people are asking A&C to build, they are succeeding admirably.

JohnV

Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2003, 09:25:03 AM »
Little Bro, I know you weren't suggesting it.  I was just adding on to your statement, not aruging with it.  Too many golf courses have been sold by architects with the phrase, "This is going to be a top 100 course."  When they know that there is no way that it can be.  Also, so many owners have asked for a top 100 course that they would have to be about 1000 top 100 courses to contain them all.  Then there are the owners who proclaim their courses to be top 100 (or even the best in the state) when there is nobody who would even consider them for the honor.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2003, 02:22:20 PM »
TimT,
I just got back from a short trip and my last stop was at Lee Hill. They did close the course last summer to add drainage and new grass. Conditions were very good, even at this late date. The staff is very friendly and so were the players I met as I zoomed around.
It is advantageous to place your tee shot to get the better angle in to the interesting, well guarded greens, but the target is attainable if you don't. The routing cuts back on itself a few times but this must be a factor of the land. As you say, there are many swampy areas.  
It is a reasonably priced and enjoyable course that will keep the interest of more accomplished players while not brutalizing those with higher handicaps.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2008, 11:24:55 AM »
Here's what their website says is coming in '08 and '09:
* Blue Ridge Shadows GC, Front Royal, Va
* Williamsburg National II, (Yorktown) Williamsburg, Va
* Oak Creek Club Golf Course, Upper Marlboro, Md
* Creekmoor Country Club, Raymore, Mo
* Dogwood Trace, Petersburg, Va
* Eagle Ridge GC, Lakewood, NJ

Any info on any of these projects?

Rob_Waldron

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Re: Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2008, 11:51:27 AM »
Dan

I played Oak Creek a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed it. I thought it was some of Tom Clark's best work!

Jeff_Stettner

Re: Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2008, 12:07:02 PM »
Played Creekmoor recently. Interesting course. The individual golf holes were thought-provoking and the bunker work was dramatic and aesthetically appealing. However, the greens were really strange. The were, in my opinion, really disparate from how the golf holes set up. They were often quite narrow or oddly angled, especially on holes that required longer approaches. I really enjoyed the course until I got to the greens... where I found myself repeatedly scratching my head.

Ray Richard

Re: Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2008, 02:57:04 PM »
They completed a redesign of the greens at Nashua CC (NH) last year that looks quite nice. They also renovated the bunkering at Dennis Pines on Cape Cod a few years ago. It's a nice company to work with and they are good at getting through the subtle political issues that creep up on muni golf projects.

Rich Brittingham

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Re: Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2008, 03:20:31 PM »
I played Blue Ridge Shadows a few weeks back and was pleasantly surprised.  It's nothing like their standard muni layouts which dominate the public golf landscape of Northern VA.  Much of this is due to the elevation changes they were afforded within the landscape, but they used this to their advantage creating some spectacualr elevated tee shots, and some strategic elevated greens.  The course was in great shape as well. 

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ault, Clark & Associates
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2008, 04:50:35 PM »
I enjoyed their course at Toftrees Resort in State College, PA when I played it in a tournament about foru summers ago.
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