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Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2020, 11:06:43 PM »
 8)  Archie, I see Twisted dunes website says its 7200 yards, you saved $700k by DIY, but how much did the irrigation system cost 20 years ago?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2020, 11:08:56 PM »
8)  Archie, I see Twisted dunes website says its 7200 yards, you saved $700k by DIY, but how much did the irrigation system cost 20 years ago?
About $850-$900 per head...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don Mahaffey

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2020, 11:34:38 PM »
I started designing irrigation systems in '08, added a full partner to my irrigation consulting firm 3 years ago when I got too busy with golf construction to properly served my irrigation clients. Currently we have 6 irrigation projects in design or construction.


Being today is Christmas, I didn't read every word of every post on this thread.
But...
1) I disagree that irrigation components have become more technically advanced over the last decade. HDPE pipe had become more accepted, but the branded components have hardly changed other than the "upgrades" to software that have been full of bugs. The manufacturers will claim advances, I don't agree. To me it's just salesmanship.


2) IMO, design hasn't moved forward either, in fact I'd say if anything it has regressed. Unless you consider adding more, tightly spaced components as an "advance". 
Those of us who worked in the dirt for years always knew that when sand plating for greens or any other feature, low areas needed a little more sand, and high spots a little less if the goal was to keep things fairly evenly moist/dry.  But its only recently that "science" has finally agreed and now what we always knew is considered "advanced" so when a construction uses varying sand depths its consider cutting edge. Irrigation is no different. Down the middle we need uniformity, on the edges and in other low play areas we need coverage. There is a difference, but alas, most "cutting age" designs just grid it all and trim it all out because of course, like the sand depths used to be, it must all be the same. Its ironic since we have these computer controlled systems that can operate each head locally but we just cant shake the global, or design  to least common denominator, approach.


3)  As my friend Joe Hancock has long said, no one gets paid more for doing less. When it comes to irrigation, the more stuff, the bigger the fee. And most in the business are not interested in anything less than everything possible. I got fired from a very cool project in the rainy NW USA because I pushed back against putting in 100s of mister heads around bunkers. There are less expensive ways of irrigating golf courses than the industry norm. But speaking out about it is not good for business.


4) While everyone in golf rants about the cost of irrigation, few ever really enforce that idea once the work starts. In my irrigation consulting experience the only designers that questioned the number of components DURING the project were Tom Doak, Mike Nuzzo, and Keith Rhebb and Riley Johns.  Everyone else bitches about it, constantly, because it eats so much of the projects funds, but few ever really pull the client aside, because its hard. I think they just feel its not their place to rock the boat.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 11:50:37 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Mike_Trenham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2020, 12:31:58 AM »
Ok I want to ask a very basic (likely stupid) question.  Why can’t the control boxes be redesigned to only rise say 24” above the ground? 


Its aggravating when these come into play on your intended shot path.


Signed an erratic low ball hitter.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Joe_Tucholski

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2020, 02:17:05 AM »
For the majority of golfers in the US, golf is a luxury good.


No one wants to go cheap on a luxury good, if they do it's not a luxury good anymore.


Couple of analogies in this thread.


$350 bike vs $5k bike
Amana vs Viking/Subzero/Wolf
Wendy's/McDonalds vs Michelin restaurant


If given the choice, most will pick the higher end item, even if they have to take on debt to do so.





Steve Lang

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2020, 07:47:54 AM »
8)  Archie, I see Twisted dunes website says its 7200 yards, you saved $700k by DIY, but how much did the irrigation system cost 20 years ago?
About $850-$900 per head...


So the gca initially factors whole irrigation system costs off of number of heads?   How much range in numbers of heads are seen in practice, 300 - 500 or up to 1000+ for full gridded approach on 7000+ yd courses?   I assume pump station & tie-ins (or wells if used) and pump electrical utility supply costs are too site specific to generalize but they must add something significant to overall cost, 10%??


I wonder many heads at Twisted Dunes??  Fairways look nice and green on website pics, distinct from rough.


thanks for any info, just wondering
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2020, 08:48:56 AM »
 8)

Tom ,  that story about ACCC is better than I could imagine, and I was there a lot. Almost forgot... that job was our best profit maker, lots of dirt from Twisted Dune made it to your site.





Merry Christmas
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 11:44:16 PM by archie_struthers »

archie_struthers

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2020, 09:03:49 AM »
 ???

Steve , I'm pretty sure we were all in around 800k including pump house. The initial bids we received were around 1.2-1.4m and didn't include any "extras" as they call them. I am Scottish 8)  so probably counted all the heads. We used Rain Bird heads with approximately 700 in total.  Thinking 900's for fairways and 700's around the greens. NO MISTERS lol

We did have the luxury of equipment to do almost any kind of digging , trenching or etc so had savings in that regard. Our super and Dominick and Gary just directed the rest of us as to what they needed done. As stated three amazing workers and very concerned with quality without wasting any money!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 12:48:32 PM by archie_struthers »

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2020, 09:46:45 AM »
8)  Archie, I see Twisted dunes website says its 7200 yards, you saved $700k by DIY, but how much did the irrigation system cost 20 years ago?
About $850-$900 per head...


So the gca initially factors whole irrigation system costs off of number of heads?   How much range in numbers of heads are seen in practice, 300 - 500 or up to 1000+ for full gridded approach on 7000+ yd courses?   I assume pump station & tie-ins (or wells if used) and pump electrical utility supply costs are too site specific to generalize but they must add something significant to overall cost, 10%??


I wonder many heads at Twisted Dunes??  Fairways look nice and green on website pics, distinct from rough.


thanks for any info, just wondering
20 years ago a down an dirty estimate would be to count your heads and multiply by one of those numbers..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2020, 09:54:01 AM »
For the majority of golfers in the US, golf is a luxury good.


No one wants to go cheap on a luxury good, if they do it's not a luxury good anymore.


Couple of analogies in this thread.


$350 bike vs $5k bike
Amana vs Viking/Subzero/Wolf
Wendy's/McDonalds vs Michelin restaurant


If given the choice, most will pick the higher end item, even if they have to take on debt to do so.
Joe,  could be you are correct but that golfer wanting luxury conditions doesn't want to pay what those luxury conditions cost.  They want to pay a fee that has often been driven down by GolfNow etc and golf courses can't give luxury for $35-$50 bucks...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2020, 11:16:23 AM »
My thoughts on the subject.....


First, our typical contractor bid for irrigation now runs from $1400-$1600 per sprinkler, up quite a bit from a few years ago.  That said, the typical pricing pattern in the industry (and maybe all construction) is to hold steady, especially in recession years, and then jump 15+% when the economy improves.  I think there is some of that, even in irrigation where demand was fairly constant. The other part was, as mentioned, the increase in oil prices, which affects plastic prices and transportation, although it never seems to go back down when gas drops back to under $2 per gallon, LOL, Not.


We estimate the number of sprinklers at 10-14 sprinklers per acre, with 11-12 being most typical with average spacing.  As Mike Nuzzo alludes, sprinkler spacing has been getting tighter, from an average of 75-80 feet years ago to 55-65 feet now on windy sites and under the theory that closer spacing actually saves water to some extent by providing more even coverage, i.e., supers don't have to run longer to adequately catch the outer radius areas of each sprinkler, thus overwatering the center of its pattern.  Like Tom D, I have asked for data.  Toro and Rainbird have stated you can save 23% of water, which is independently tested and verified.  I believe you actually can save maybe half of that 23% in real-world conditions, but the data I have seen from old and new systems at the same course, it doesn't often happen that way.  It is hard to use more water using an old system of perhaps 1600 GPM capacity over a new one with 2500-3000 GPM capacity.


These type of systems are often regulated or strongly suggested as "best management practices" (which some courses follow in an attempt to minimize stricter regulations in a given area)


Anyway, my take is that it is not even the number of sprinklers used, as it is the perceived need to water every acre of golf course every night, if desired.  And, in the last dozen years, to water it in 6 hours, not the 7-8 of years past.  That is what drives the GPM capacity so far upward.  6 hour water windows were originally started at high end and resort courses, where they wanted to have maintenance personnel off the course before the first golfers to enhance the golf experience.  The best cut comes after the turf dries out somewhat, so to be done mowing at 6AM, watering must stop at 3AM or so and can't start until about 9PM if you don't want late evening golfers in summer to see sprinklers running then, either.  So, pump stations and mainline pipes have both gotten extraordinarily larger.  A typical mainline exiting the pump station might have been 12", now its sometimes 24" and never less than 16", in my experience.  The 6 vs 8 hour water window really drives up cost, and at most courses, playing follow the leader, I wonder if it impacts the golf experience enough to really be worth it.


There used to be an oft used option to design a system to water every other night.  If using the checkbook system, watering only when field capacity is low, you are probably watering every 2-4 nights most times of the year.  In the "old days" when it came to August hot days, they simply ran the system 10 hours or more, but now they seem to be designed to never have to run past 3AM.  If you ran the math, losing a few hours of play per day in August (and when it's 100 deg., you probably are losing most of it anyway) may not cost more revenue than the cost of the system.  Of course, in a 1-3% interest rate environment, it's not really the $1.75-2 Mil total cost of the system, its the annual debt payment that really matters, and it's a good time to spend more now to save water later in some cases.  (I'm just not sure it pays back everywhere) But to be fair, there are Mercedes type irrigation designers who put in everything, and there are GMC designers who don't insist on every bell, whistle, and GPM of capacity. 


I asked a Texas superintendent (around even longer than I have been) what would be the problem with extending the irrigation window on those few really hot days, like they typically did in the old days.  After thought, there wasn't really a big technical problem (although theory does say to finish water before hot sun).  Then, he said the old guys might strip down and run through the sprinklers naked.....and no one wants to see that! ;) 


As with most discussions here, we tend to focus on top end courses, that make up a small percentage of courses.  And, yes, at those type courses (and the threshold is truly dropping for courses that would accept some season browning in outer play areas)  members sometimes direct the super to water more than is technically necessary for turf health.  Many supers have adopted irrigating a few tenths every night, because someone complains that the course plays differently from day to day (I doubt most could really notice.)  That same idea scotches the idea of designing for every other night watering to reduce capacity and water use, even if that is really better for the turf.  So, yes, in some cases, the fox runs the hen house and I bet most supers would be on board with deep, infrequent watering if not for outside pressure.


In reality, most courses struggle to irrigate enough, not have problems of watering too much.  However, I agree the cost of the new irrigation system seems astronomical, even if part of that is my old guy, gum used to be a nickle self, LOL, NOT!
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 11:18:01 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2020, 12:35:41 PM »
I always say I come here to learn and I have learned a lot from this thread. I appreciate all of the comments, even those that sought to hand me my head.


 I come to this topic from the perspective of an educated amateur.  I was involved in the purchase and installation of 2 systems at our Chicago area private club, one circa 1997 and the other circa 2018.  I have also moderated a yearly CDGA sponsored seminar for greens committee members for the last 20 years.  Panelists include the CDGA agronomist, USGA agronomists, superintendents and architects.  I take with a great degree of seriousness the remarks of all of my better educated friends and I pay particular attention to the remarks of Don Mahaffey and Tom Doak.  I am also informed by Jeff Brauer's somewhat moderating take on the issue.


My own experience teaches me that prices have gone up during the last 20 years.  The quality of the plastic pipe has improved and controls are easier to use.  Heads appear to be marginally better.  A factor that is difficult to evaluate is the amount of coverage.  While almost all new systems are 3 or 4 rows, many courses are incorporating more natural areas which reduce the number of acres to be watered.


There is always the battle against those members who demand lush green conditions at all times.  I note the overlap with "tree huggers" but that is for a different thread.  In any event, I have seen a growing appreciation for firm and fast conditions which in some cases mitigates the desire for uniform color.  I believe much can be achieved with a strong superintendent who works to educate the membership.  I agree that the supers have the hardest job in golf. They are my favorite people in golf and their support was and is the genesis for our seminar.


Jeff's observation about watering windows comports with my experience but I have never really considered its impact.  I have observed that our club is using less water.  It is less important at our club financially as we have our own well to provide irrigation water.  I attribute it to a desire to maintain firm and fast conditions coupled with an expansion of natural areas.  Our conversion from our poa greens which had very short roots due to a thatch accumulation to A1/A4 coupled with an improved root zone has required less water on the greens as well.  So it is hard to calculate where the water savings come from.  Our super informs me that it is easier to target particular areas with our new system.


I continue to learn.  I agree that it is easy to overspend and I am certain that those planning systems are happy to sell every bell and whistle in their repertoire.  But I know from personal experience that there exist some improvements that here in Chicago, some excellent superintendents find very useful.  Each club should make its own cost /benefit analysis.  My final and most important conclusion is that the selection of equipment is far less important than the vision and skill of the superintendent and crew abetted by the support of an educated chairman. committee and membership.  With the right people, you can make almost any thing work.  Conversely,  it doesn't matter what you spend if conceptually you have it "wrong".

Don Mahaffey

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2020, 01:54:06 PM »
Shel,
No question the Supt managing the system is the most important piece, nothing else comes close. On may occasions we've been invited out to conduct an evaluation and end up telling the Supt he's his own worse enemy because he's presenting a very good golf course with an awful system.
I have so many stories...one that comes to mind is the Supt at a muni in Nebraska who literally set up his pump house as a home away from home because he had to sleep there many nights during the hottest time of the year because the old pumps went down so often...he also had a leaky lake, a fussy well, and a system that was falling apart, yet his small municipal golf course was in very good condition. The city funded a $750K project that fixed his lake, and got him a new system that was designed for add-ons as capital became available.


The point of my story is to emphasize the importance of the Supt, and that there are options to a $2M system.

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2020, 02:02:19 PM »
Likely get shot at for this but what’s wrong with brown or beige? :)
Atb

David_Tepper

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2020, 02:59:53 PM »
Thomas D. & Duncan C. -

There are large portions of the U.S. where it does not rain at all for 5 to 6 months in a row and/or the temperatures can average 90F or more for weeks or months at a time. Irrigation isn't just a matter of keeping a course green. For some/many courses it is needed to keep the course alive and in business.

DT



Tom Bacsanyi

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2020, 09:20:55 PM »
Shel,
No question the Supt managing the system is the most important piece, nothing else comes close. On may occasions we've been invited out to conduct an evaluation and end up telling the Supt he's his own worse enemy because he's presenting a very good golf course with an awful system.
I have so many stories...one that comes to mind is the Supt at a muni in Nebraska who literally set up his pump house as a home away from home because he had to sleep there many nights during the hottest time of the year because the old pumps went down so often...he also had a leaky lake, a fussy well, and a system that was falling apart, yet his small municipal golf course was in very good condition. The city funded a $750K project that fixed his lake, and got him a new system that was designed for add-ons as capital became available.


The point of my story is to emphasize the importance of the Supt, and that there are options to a $2M system.


Don, what's the cost of HDPE vs. PVC in back-of-the-napkin percentage terms? How much likely is HDPE to fail vs. PVC?


All our irrigation tech does is fix broken PVC basically. We are in rocky clay on the side of a mountain in CO.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Don Mahaffey

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2020, 09:47:20 PM »
Tom,
The gap is closing and it helps that just about everyone installing irrigation is now qualified to fuse HDPE.
In real numbers we recently bid a project where the client insisted on PVC as an alternate. On a full 18 hole renovation in the central US the PVC alternate had a savings of $25,000...which didn’t out weigh the benefits of HDPE.
There are a lot of hidden savings with HDPE...no thrust blocks, joint restraints, select backfill, and good HDPE installers much prefer it.
In the scenario you describe, the use of HDPE is a no brainer.
In the story I used about the Supt sleeping in the pump house, we installed HDPE and he went from fixing leaks regularly to zero leaks.  Still have weeping and occasional stuck heads, but leaks are gone.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 09:56:40 PM by Don Mahaffey »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2020, 12:07:58 AM »
Ok I want to ask a very basic (likely stupid) question.  Why can’t the control boxes be redesigned to only rise say 24” above the ground? 


Its aggravating when these come into play on your intended shot path.


Signed an erratic low ball hitter.


Hey Mike
To clear your lane...
Option 1, don't use them - not all systems use them, systems like the one Don designed at Wolf Point have no visible stuff, or controllers.
Option 2, only have very little kids running the systems or supers that don't mind kneeling to run them, and hope they don't flood.
Good luck hitting them higher, they shouldn't be in the way.


Since no one answered my earlier quiz, no prizes awarded.
Simplified Answers:
1. 2X (it is an inverse square law type of problem - if you cut the spacing in half, it would cost ~4X - or if a 90' spaced system costs $1M a 55' spaced system would cost ~$2.7M)
2. No one cares (with a good superintendent - as Don says), so why spend twice as much?
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2020, 04:14:20 AM »
Short & oversimplified quiz:
What is the difference in cost between a new system with 60' rotor spacing vs one with 85' spacing?
What is the rotor spacing at the top 100 courses in the world?
Cheers


Furthermore, What is the difference in irrigating every square foot of the property vs. irrigating only the areas that 90% of the golf is played on?


Example: when Yeaman’s Hall recently redid their irrigation system, they intentionally chose NOT to irrigate the areas between the tees and the fairways. No one complains, and I’m sure it saved a lot of money.

That's interesting Joe. On both my visits to Yeamans one of the more impressive aspects of the course was the condition of the rough.

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 04:23:12 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2020, 05:05:20 AM »
Thomas D. & Duncan C. -
There are large portions of the U.S. where it does not rain at all for 5 to 6 months in a row and/or the temperatures can average 90F or more for weeks or months at a time. Irrigation isn't just a matter of keeping a course green. For some/many courses it is needed to keep the course alive and in business.
DT
Fair point but golf, like many other outdoor sports and pastimes, is essentially a seasonal game both in terms of playing it and the playing surface, something that doesn't seem to be as appreciated by golfers as it once was.
And there are some places where folks play in extremely hot conditions on courses without any grass at all just as there are plenty of snowy parts of the world where golf is impossible for long periods of time but where Clubs still exist on a seasonal basis.
There's no divine right for golf to be perfectly playable 365/365.
atb

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2020, 10:58:34 AM »
Tom,  I agree that brown or beige can be good so long as it is a healthy color.  But regardless of anyone's philosophical preference, people want to play so long as weather permits and they want excellent playing conditions.  If science allows this to occur you will find yourself like King Canute commanding the tide to refrain from coming in.  Its going to happen.  Thus the discussion about limiting costs.  Incidentally, in many suitable climates irrigation is still critical, particularly given modern standards for green speeds.  Again, many of us believe that speeds should be rolled back but then there's the King Canute analogy.

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2020, 11:23:33 AM »
Shel, as long as we, as golfers, equate turf health to turf color, we’re going to be disappointed with our experience if we play golf on anything less than consistent, perfectly manicured golf that is green.


Which leads us to this thread........
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2020, 11:27:22 AM »
Joe, I am with you on this one.  I have been fighting for "healthy brown" for a long time.  But not many members want to listen.  Its even worse when it comes to areas off the fairways.  I have some notoriety at my club for the question "why do you think it's called rough?"

Bruce Katona

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2020, 11:37:02 AM »
Archie:

No need to remind you how easy digging for the irrigation system @ TD was......did you ever find any rocks?


I always giggle about the one faux paus out on 13 & 14.


Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.


BK

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: The ridiculous cost of irrigation
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2020, 11:54:30 AM »
Lots of good info here.  I was going to make a post summarizing some of the key takeaways and might get to that later.  In the meantime, could it be argued that the introduction and adaption of automatic irrigation on golf courses might have had the single biggest impact on golf course design in the last 75 years!  Think about what it has done before a quick answer.