The ridiculous cost of irrigation

[archie_struthers]

 


In the last couple of years I have been shocked at the cost of bids for new irrigation systems at some clubs in our area. Having done it in house at Twisted Dune due to the same craziness  in 1999-2000 I'm just wondering how clubs can bite at the prices offered. Seems like a real scam. Have had some good conversations off line on same and interested to hear from you all! 
 Given the dearth of new construction jobs you would think someone could sharpen a pencil.

[John Nixon]

What is the cost of not irrigating?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Build golf courses in places that have ample rainfall throughout the year and you don’t need irrigation.

[John Emerson]

You get what you pay for.  It’s hard work putting them in, and peoples time is valuable.  We should be having this conversation about lawyers, and not irrigation. 

[archie_struthers]

 


" People's time is valuable"   


Back to the question. Irrigation systems for golf courses, whether replacement or new construction have come in at prices running from $1.5 to $2 million dollars for a few of our clubs doing work here at the Jersey Shore. I think it's one of those services that most don't understand and it's easy to be dazzled by new technology.


Have seen some prices as high as $250,000 for "mobilization" which is really ridiculous. We hear things like isolation valves,
flow controls ,backflow preventers, VOM, hammer and say wow, this is way our of our league. Kind of reminds me of the the prices builders get per square foot in rich vs poor neighborhoods.


Hope Don Mahaffey chimes in as he has forgotten more than most of us know about this area, Merry Christmas all!




 

[Rob Marshall]

We did ours in upstate NY about 5 or 6 years ago. The second one in my time as a member there. I think we were around $1.2m. Company out of Ohio did the work.

[Rick Shefchik]

What is the cost of not irrigating?

If uttered by an irrigation system salesman, that would sound like extortion. "Nice course. It'd be a shame if something bad happened to it."

[Thomas Dai]

Can be easy to forget that golf is a seasonal game and is location orientated too.
Suppose the equivalent of an irrigation system in a significantly cold climate would be the installation of undersoil heating. The two opposing sides of the same coin in some respects.
Atb

[SL_Solow]

I too would like to hear from Don.  But the increase in costs is really a result of 2 developments.  First, as we have often discussed, expectations regarding conditioning have increased. This led to increased complexity in systems and then the manufacturers made significant improvements in the equipment.  Where single row hand operated systems were once deemed state of the art, we now have 4 and 5 rows which are computer controlled.  Heads are for more advanced beyond the simple circular distributions. Computer controls which can work individual heads are common.  Moisture measurement is becoming more common place.  None of this is free.  If a course decides it doesn't need these features, it can save money.  But also note, the pipe used now has a longer useful life.  The advanced systems use water more efficiently so some of the cost is recaptured.  Finally, regulations regarding the use and disposition of water are increasingly complex so systems have to take these restrictions into account.  Start with determining the "level" of conditioning desired and then work backwards.  In my time I have been involved on the committee level in the purchase and installation of 2 systems with more than 20 years intervening and I have compared notes with many.  It's an interesting problem.


As for the obligatory cheap shot at lawyers, this isn't the forum.  Let me suggest that I have been in the profession for 45+ years in firms ranging from 8 to more than 1500 lawyers.  Inflation and supply and demand account for most of the increase in rates and smart consumers can do a lot to control costs.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Short & oversimplified quiz:
What is the difference in cost between a new system with 60' rotor spacing vs one with 85' spacing?
What is the rotor spacing at the top 100 courses in the world?
Cheers

[Steve Lang]

   Thomas, in refineries and chem plants we always installed water lines and sewers below the frost line, like 42 inches in Chicago area, 120 in Alberta, ...  best practice in shallower systems is to drain (blow out) lines to prevent winter damage.


I wonder what was spec at Tom D's Black Forest Course at Wilderness Valley (NLE).  It suffered some major damage some years ago which helped lead to its demise... despite best efforts of maint. guys there.


Used to estimate +/- 50% budget plant costs for steel piping at $400/ft installed, so piping alone for 7000 yds (21000 ft) @ say $100/ft is $2.1 MM.  So 1-2 $MM is not unreasonable ballpark estimate depending on layout, pipe specs & depths and yes the "other engineered stuff" isn't free either, let alone some profit versus sweat equity from homer costs.       

[Thomas Dai]

Steve, thanks for these details. The point I was attempting to make is that the world is essentially a seasonal planet, that golf should reflect this far more than is does and that seasonal variations should influence player expectations more, including the way courses are prepared and operated.
Atb

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm going to continue to be the devils advocate for less not more when it comes to irrigation. You can buy a $5k bike or the $350 cross country cruiser I have and pretty much get the same result unless you are in the tour de france. In fact my maintenance costs on my bike have been less than $50 in three years of use.

So different strokes for different folks.

I'd also venture to say that if you spend some extra money on finding the very best superintendent and paying them a little extra you will get better results with less. Most of the best worry more about too much water and not about regulating every square inch of property you are maintaining. In keeping with that line of thinking I'd bet more greens have been lost over cultural practices and a bad chemical application than a faulty irrigation system.

[SL_Solow]

Steve,  I haven't seen steel piping recently

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
First of all Merry Christmas.  Irrigation is yet another example of maintenance costs that can have a dramatic impact on design budgets for new construction and for renovations.  No disrespect intended, but very few golfers have the slightest idea how much irrigation costs (similar to drainage costs) for one because they don’t see it.  Irrigation has A Major impact on many of the renovation or restoration projects that I and most others work on.  It impacts fairway widths, bunker locations, green expansions, ....  Sometimes there is not enough budget to move and/or add heads or to add laterals or to reach areas where you want certain features or expansions.  Most don’t realize bunkers need to be watered too.  Irrigation and néw pump stations/wells, etc can be one of the most expensive parts of a renovation.  And today the amount of sophistication is amazing which is clearly adding to the cost.  I wouldn't call it a scam knowing what technology costs but it is getting more and more expensive.   Golfers don’t realize how important water (particularly the right amount of water) is to a properly maintained design.  Golfers also don’t realize that water is not only used for irrigation but also for syringing/cooling during excessively hot periods and for flushing drain lines and for a whole host of maintenance aspects a course.  Believe it or not there are still many golf courses that rely on quick coupler systems where they drag around hoses and hand water (shocking yes but true).  Even some of the top courses require hand watering of certain features but imagine moving hoses around to hand water an entire golf course.   Some might say let nature do the watering or only build golf courses where there is adequate amounts of rain.  I wonder how many golf courses there would be in places like Arizona and Palm Springs to name just a few locations.  Once again this is a maintenance/budget cost that most architects must think about and deal with (it can often pose a huge design constraint) when designing or renovating a golf course. But the average golfer wouldn’t even notice. Even on a site like this with very knowledgeable people who are into golf architecture, how many really understand the impact and cost of this maintenance aspect on design? 

[archie_struthers]

 


Mark that's what we are talking about. If drainage is the most important aspect of successful construction then to me these new irrigation systems are the worst advance in many ways. Who can fix them if they go down?  Not too many people.

[Steve Lang]

Steve,  I haven't seen steel piping recently

Not arguing that, which is why I used 25% of my rule of thumb steel reference point for assumed plastic piping used in irrigation service...  and then considered cutting that in half but adding back in couplers, valves, controllers, thrust blocks, risers and heads etc, its got to cost a fair bit in teh subject 1-2 $MM range


The isn't rocket science, but professional pipers' specs have many years of engineering experience behind them. I've learned a lot in over 45 years as a chem engineer so I have some appreciation of the application.   How well gca's adopt or follow them in delivering their product in a cost effective manner is their business and impacts their reputation, easy to see why they subcontract that scope of work unless they're comfortable with the design details.  Do they use schedule 40 or 80 pipe use multiple loops?  All I know on golf courses is when i see a small stream crossing a fairway or obvious wet spot, I call the proshop!

[Mark_Fine]

Steve,
I always use or recommend an irrigation consultant when confronted with any major changes or additions to an existing irrigation system and especially with a new one.  One important point to make which you would think would be obvious but sadly it is not is DO NOT install an new irrigation system or make major changes to an existing one before implementing or considering a Master Plan of architectural changes to the golf course.  You will end up spending money twice by having to change the system to meet the needs of the modified course design or else you will force the architect to tie their changes to the new irrigation.  These two things need to be well coordinated. 

[SL_Solow]

Archie,  As I understand it, a major purpose of the newer systems is to distribute water more efficiently.  Your assumption that they mean more water is simply that, an assumption.  My conversations with supers suggest that they allow them to do more with less.  Of course, if a club decides to water more area it is likely to use more water.  As far as repairs, I have not heard of a significant incidence of breakdowns.  Have you?  Any supers on the site with information?  Again, I have no dog in this fight, I am clearly in the firm and fast camp but better irrigation and drainage allows that maintenance meld with greater efficiency when used correctly

[Mike_Young]

Archie,You are correct...it is ridiculous.  I might be a little spacey here but let me throw some stuff out there.
Earlier John Emerson stated. "You get what you pay for.  It’s hard work putting them in, and peoples time is valuable.  We should be having this conversation about lawyers, and not irrigation. "   
He is right.  If you pay $50 bucks to $75 bucks to play you should not expect to be at a place that has a 2 million dollar irrigation system.  The 1500 (maybe) clubs that can afford this will install such systems and the others that can't afford it will see them and be told how much they can save in labor and water etc etc and either buy a system they cannot afford or be made to feel that they did something wrong by spending less.Think about this for a minute:  Look at so many new homes with Viking, Wolf cooking ranges , Zubzero fridges etc...those appliances are great...but can most people really cook any better because they are there and they spent an extra $15,000...HELL NO.  So many of our golf course systems are sold in the same manner....how many of you really think golfers have pushed maintenance to the level it is now?  I say it is developers and resorts and top privates wanting to show better and better conditioning in order to separate themselves from the competition. The actual green surfaces can be pretty close on a course with a $500,000 budget vs.  a $2,000,000 and the rest is overkill... And in so doing they pay the most for supts...then supts want more budget so they can present better conditions and get a job with more budget...thats the way it works....When you put in irrigation in a country in an area such as Latin America, you will do much better to use quick coupler in fairways or a simple 4 heads to a wire with no central and 2 heads to a wire around the greens with a valve off green.  Labor will understand that simple system and will water as needed every nite for years.  You give them the large head count computer based, state of the art, 2 mill system and the least little problem and guys are flying in and reading pump station modems from LA etc....  I've seen it happen more than once.Now I don't need some guy telling me I'm cutting corners or doing it on the cheap.  I know how to do it to fit the job.  There is a reason McDonalds and Wendy's build there buildings the way they build them.  It allows them to sell a hamburger at a profit.  Do you think the Wendy's and McDonald owners are asking the top chefs at America's top restaurants how to set up that building?  HELL NO...But the golf industry has done a disservice to so many of this country's courses over the years by trying to sell them systems ( not just irrigation) that will break them.  There  is a guerilla industry out there now and the original equipment guys are selling more and more used equipment and irrigation.   AND. LASTLY, don't hink salesmen don't realize that a  2 million dollar irrigation to a 500 member club is really a $4000 system  ( per member). vs. one owner where it is $2 millon... and that is really why guys love to sell to member clubs... JMO....

[Mark_Fine]

SL,
You are correct the newer systems allow more efficient use of water and distribution of it more precisely where you want it and not where you don’t.  But it comes with a high up front price.  Plus there is pressure from members who just got a huge assessment to put it in who complain when the turf is slightly brown and firm (which most of us like and is often a sign of healthy grass) because they want the super to use it more and green up the place 


The supers job is never easy. 

[Joe Hancock]

Short & oversimplified quiz:
What is the difference in cost between a new system with 60' rotor spacing vs one with 85' spacing?
What is the rotor spacing at the top 100 courses in the world?
Cheers

Furthermore, What is the difference in irrigating every square foot of the property vs. irrigating only the areas that 90% of the golf is played on?


Example: when Yeaman’s Hall recently redid their irrigation system, they intentionally chose NOT to irrigate the areas between the tees and the fairways. No one complains, and I’m sure it saved a lot of money.

[Tim Martin]

Short & oversimplified quiz:
What is the difference in cost between a new system with 60' rotor spacing vs one with 85' spacing?
What is the rotor spacing at the top 100 courses in the world?
Cheers

Example: when Yeaman’s Hall recently redid their irrigation system, they intentionally chose NOT to irrigate the areas between the tees and the fairways. No one complains, and I’m sure it saved a lot of money.

Joe-It would be terrific to see that practice catch on from YH.

[archie_struthers]

 


Man I love when Mike Young chimes in and as usual  he really nailed it! 


So when we built Twisted Dune in 2000 the irrigation bids were coming really high. So high that I just couldn't believe  it. The idea there was  to use very little water and to keep it rock hard, but we still probably over engineered the system.
This is a very big golf course, as anyone who has played there knows.  However we were blessed with three really great guys in  Dom and Gary Scafidi (RIP) from Irrigation Unlimited and our super Steve Lane. I asked them if we could do it ourselves and they said yes. I'm guessing we saved about $700,000 dollars from the bids we received and as far as I know it's still working today. We did it without a whole lot of trouble and kept it fairly simple.

SL , I didn't assume anything about using more water with new systems. But it's pretty obvious if they go bad not many guys can fix them. Ever take a Mercedes in to the shop? Ouch.

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:


My favorite irrigation story is from when we were rebuilding Atlantic City CC.


The first design comes back and it has like 1,300 heads . . . on 110 acres that already has grass on it.


We are all in a meeting [client(s), superintendent, project manager, my site rep, etc] and I say, "I must not be understanding something here.  What do you want this course to look like?"


Project manager [Billy Z]:  "We want it to have an eastern Long Island, Shinnecock / Maidstone look."


Me:  "But Maidstone doesn't even have fairway irrigation."


BZ:  "We want it to look like that, but perfect."


Me:  [sighs, tries another tack, turns to superintendent]:  "With all those little mister heads around the bunkers, you are going to need to have two full-time guys doing irrigation work."


Superintendent:  "I've already got them in the budget."


At that point, I glanced over at the client to see if he was getting up to grab the superintendent by the collar, but he was not.  So I gave in.      If they really wanted to spend that much I should have charged more for the design.




I would generally defer to a golf course superintendent as to what he wants, and irrigation is very different from one region to another.  But, more than once I've superintendents sold on a system so complicated that they don't ever use it to the best of its ability.


On top of that, several of the best superintendents I know NEVER water the greens except by hand, so just right there is 100+ sprinkler heads they didn't need.




PS to Shel:  I've asked those irrigation designers to give me data on a system where they used less water after they put in a new system.  The only one which has come back that way is Pasatiempo, and that's because of water restrictions.  Usually, when clubs put in a new system, the members want the superintendent to TURN IT ON, and he is obliged to follow their guidance.