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Tim Martin

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All I Want For Christmas
« on: December 19, 2020, 02:05:44 PM »
The one list I would like to play is all the courses used for the Walker Cup going back to the inaugural match at NGLA in 1922. With Seminole, St. Andrews and Cypress Point next in the rotation the event continues to use iconic Golden Age courses in both the U.S. and GB&I. What is it about the event that has the most private clubs pulling back the blinds?

Joe Bausch

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2020, 02:14:54 PM »
I'll take a stab, Tim:


1.  Prestige


2.  Setup is simpler compared to a PGA Tour event as attendance is much smaller.


P.S.  The Walker Cup at Merion was so much fun to attend.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2020, 02:22:32 PM »
My guess is the small crowds.  No gallery stands, no ropes, no one shouting right after impact made, and no "superstars" (so 99.9% of gallery made up of real golfers who understand and love the game and its traditions).  Tough to have that atmosphere at a Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup, US Open, or PGA. 


I was a National member of Quaker Ridge in '97 when it hosted the Walker Cup and was there all week.  It was Justin Rose's event...he was 16 years old, had what was unquestionably the best swing of any player there, and after pumping his opening drive OB right on #1 in the first match, he was the star of the Matches.  Tiger had turned pro about a year earlier,  Justin had his 72nd hole eagle hole on at Birkdale the following summer (still as an Am).


Only golf spectator event that I think compares or is better is when the Open Championship is in St Andrews (never been to Walker Cup in St Andrews)

Tim Martin

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2020, 02:41:42 PM »
The Curtis Cup also has a storied list of venues on both sides of the water with a similar viewing experience. At Essex County Club in 2010 if you were able to get out in front of or lag behind the matches as a spectator you had unfettered access to the course.
 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 02:43:51 PM by Tim Martin »

Brian_Ewen

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2020, 03:01:26 PM »
no ropes


Only been to one Walker Cup, and there was ropes  :(

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2020, 03:17:13 PM »
is a healed left foot.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2020, 03:51:27 PM »
no ropes


Only been to one Walker Cup, and there was ropes  :(


I stand corrected...

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2020, 09:14:01 PM »

The one list I would like to play is all the courses used for the Walker Cup going back to the inaugural match at NGLA in 1922.


By my count...35 courses at 34 clubs:

In GB&I (# in parentheses is # of times served as host if more than one):
Ganton
R Birkdale
R Liverpool (4 incl 1921 unofficial "test" match)
R Lythem
Sandwich (2)
Sunningdale-Old
Portmarnock
R Cty Down
Muirfield (2)
Nairn
R Aberdeen
TOC (8
Turnberry
R Porthcawl

In USA:
Cypress Pt
LACC-N
Ocean Forest
Peachtree
Chicago (2)
Kittansett
Brookline-Composite
Brookline-Main
Baltimore CC-East
Interlachen
Minikhada
PVGC (2)
Garden City
NGLA
Quaker Ridge
Shinnecock
Winged Foot-W
Merion
Seattle
Milwaukee

interestingly, last time at TOC was 1975, 45 years ago...perhaps never again

Ronald Montesano

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2020, 04:13:27 AM »
I've attended Merion and NGLA for Walker, and Quaker for Curtis, all in the guise of reporting. I agree that unfettered access is the key here. So few matches taking place, easier crowd control, old-school event, no bullsh!t.


I laugh at all the GCA guys I missed in 2009 at Merion and then (probably) again at NGLA in 2013. I was fortunate to meet Mark Chalfant at Quaker, and walk a series of holes with him.


As the 2020 Curtis Cup was postponed to 2021, I am curious as to what will happen with the 2022 event at Merion. Will they preserve it then, or will they go to the odd years, as they do with the Walker? My suspicion is, they will stay with 2022 at Merion, unless someone else has inside info.


With Cypress hosting in 2025, Pine Valley should make an appearance in 2029 or sometime in the 30s.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Martin

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2020, 07:53:26 AM »
The two U.S. venues I know little about are Seattle Golf Club and Ocean Forest. Incidentally they are the only modern venues used by either side.

archie_struthers

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2020, 08:36:36 AM »
 8)


Happy December all, pretty soon the days will start getting longer and I can't wait for summer. Let's pray that we get past this pandemic and can hang out with our friends at our favorite venue next year. Funny I missed live music the most. Kind of a Jersey Shore  tradition.


Which segues into Tim's wish. Lots of the Walker Cup sites don't want or wouldn't be able to handle the logistics of an Open or tour tournament. Along with this comes the damage to the grounds golf course setting up for same. For the Walker Cup you pretty much just open the gate and get it on.


« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 09:06:10 AM by archie_struthers »

Tim Martin

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2020, 08:55:19 AM »
8)


Happy December all, pretty soon the days will start getting longer and I can't wait for longer days. Let's pray that we get past this pandemic and can hang out with our friends at our favorite venue next year. Funny I missed live music the most. Kind of a Jersey Shore  tradition.


Which segues into Tim's wish. Lots of the Walker Cup sites don't want or wouldn't be able to handle the logistics of an Open or tour tournament. Along with this comes the damage to the grounds golf course setting up for same. For the Walker Cup you pretty much just open the gate and get it on.


Archie-Were you at Pine Valley in 1985 for the matches?

archie_struthers

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2020, 09:29:36 AM »
 8)


Tim that was my last weekend there. Caddied a little in the next couple months when taking the real estate exam but retired from golf as a career. Was assistant pro at the time. Also a great man Alec Ewing, who owned the iconic house to the left of the fifth green told me I wouldn't be back as a looper.  Time to move on!


Some memories of that event. It was a coming out party for Davis Love Jr, who hit it prodigious lengths with little effort. Colin Montgomery and Peter Baker led the Brits/Irish while Scott Verplank was the American prodigy. Jay Sigel however was captain and wasn't about to lose at PVGC.  Europe mounted a serious challenge but the Yanks prevailed with some great golf.


Other notables to play were Duffy Waldorf,  Jerry Haas and Peter McEvoy.


It was interesting that the loopers forgot their nationalist tendencies and the guys who caddied for the British team were heartbroken to lose. The greens there are so challenging that a good caddie is a greater advantage than at most venues. Frank Barrett the caddymaster did a great job of splitting the talent fairly.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 09:34:08 AM by archie_struthers »

Tim Martin

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2020, 09:58:41 AM »
8)


Tim that was my last weekend there. Caddied a little in the next couple months when taking the real estate exam but retired from golf as a career. Was assistant pro at the time. Also a great man Alec Ewing, who owned the iconic house to the left of the fifth green told me I wouldn't be back as a looper.  Time to move on!


Some memories of that event. It was a coming out party for Davis Love Jr, who hit it prodigious lengths with little effort. Colin Montgomery and Peter Baker led the Brits/Irish while Scott Verplank was the American prodigy. Jay Sigel however was captain and wasn't about to lose at PVGC.  Europe mounted a serious challenge but the Yanks prevailed with some great golf.


Other notables to play were Duffy Waldorf,  Jerry Haas and Peter McEvoy.


It was interesting that the loopers forgot their nationalist tendencies and the guys who caddied for the British team were heartbroken to lose. The greens there are so challenging that a good caddie is a greater advantage than at most venues. Frank Barrett the caddymaster did a great job of splitting the talent fairly.


Archie-That was a different day with different equipment. Great stuff man!

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2020, 10:14:26 AM »
The two U.S. venues I know little about are Seattle Golf Club and Ocean Forest. Incidentally they are the only modern venues used by either side.


I'm not sure you can describe Seattle GC as a new venue. It was founded 120 years ago and hosted national tournaments since 1927. Palmer did redesign the course in 1996, though. I love SGC. It has the feel of San Francisco GC. It is built on some very hilly terrain and is a joy to play.


Ocean Forest is a typical low country Rees Jones design. It has a very well healed membership but the course does not distinguish itself, although it is highly thought of by magazines.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 10:42:06 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Richard Fisher

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2020, 08:18:00 AM »
Walker Cup spectating has been one of the best things I have ever done in golf, and was indeed responsible for my introduction to Ward P and the GCA fraternity in the first place. My first Walker Cup was in 1981, when as a visiting student at Berkeley I got the greyhound down from SF to Carmel and Cypress Point to watch GB and I remain competitive until the fourth and final session, and then lose quite comfortably.  As was traditional. A long gap after that until Ganton 2003, but since then I have been privileged to watch at RCD, Merion, Balgownie, NGLA, Lytham and the LACC, with the record only spoiled last year by a (tragic) clash of dates with beloved Hoylake where the traditional Match narrative outlined above was resoundingly maintained. Many of these matches have been watched in the terrific company of David Normoyle and Philip Truett, both known to many on this site, and for the spectator the Walker Cup is still the best way to watch top-level golf that I know. A few ropes, but otherwise you follow the fairways, and the play, far more closely than is ever possible at a major championship.


I suspect that Seminole in May may well be off-limits, even if overseas travel for most Brits is possible (which it may well not be) but I am greatly looking forward to watching the postponed Curtis Cup at Conwy in August: the Curtis Cup venue listing is pretty good, albeit with one or two odd blips, although I have always found it mildly astonishing that in the Bad Old Days the then LGU took their principal event to two clubs which at the time did not even recognise lady members. American friends will, I suspect, be amazed that a proud but modest club like Conwy (full annual sub in the vicinity of $800 for year-round golf) is hosting The Curtis Cup, and now that ladies’ golf in the UK is under new management this may well be the last time that a community venue like Conwy is chosen. Certainly the contrast with the successor venue (Merion) could not be more profound!

Garland Bayley

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2020, 12:12:41 PM »
The two U.S. venues I know little about are Seattle Golf Club and Ocean Forest. Incidentally they are the only modern venues used by either side.

Seattle Golf Club is a modern venue?

All the discussion it got during the Jordan Wall caddyship time there never mentioned it being modern. I see that top100golfcourses.com says Arnold Plamer renovated it in 1996, but "the basic layout has remained unaltered for over 100 years."
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 12:39:06 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Martin

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2020, 12:37:55 PM »
The two U.S. venues I know little about are Seattle Golf Club and Ocean Forest. Incidentally they are the only modern venues used by either side.

Seattle Golf Club is a modern venue?


Garland-Tommy clarified in reply 14 but you are correct that it’s not a modern.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2020, 04:52:22 PM »
A) I was at Wake when Jerry Lee made the Walker Cup team. I should have gone (but did not.) That achievement earned him a place at the Masters (since done away with.)


B) I'll be shocked if either the Curtis or the Walker has fans, and won't be shocked if either is postponed. Hoping that advance notice on new strains of the virus, found in the UK, are overblown. Suspect that they are not.


C) Seattle hosted in 1961. That's 60 years ago. Certainly wasn't a modern course then. Funny that they seem quite proud of their 1996 redesign. John Ball designed the original, 9-hole course, but no one tips the hat on who designed the one that Arnie redid.


D) Somebody knew someone, and did something, for Ocean Forest to get the 2001 Walker.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JohnVDB

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2020, 09:32:18 PM »
As the 2020 Curtis Cup was postponed to 2021, I am curious as to what will happen with the 2022 event at Merion. Will they preserve it then, or will they go to the odd years, as they do with the Walker? My suspicion is, they will stay with 2022 at Merion, unless someone else has inside info.


The USGA website does still show it as 2022.


I was at NGLA and LACC for the last two Walker Cups in the US. If they are going to allow spectators, I plan on getting to Seminole next year.

Garland Bayley

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2020, 09:34:00 PM »
The two U.S. venues I know little about are Seattle Golf Club and Ocean Forest. Incidentally they are the only modern venues used by either side.

Seattle Golf Club is a modern venue?

All the discussion it got during the Jordan Wall caddyship time there never mentioned it being modern. I see that top100golfcourses.com says Arnold Plamer renovated it in 1996, but "the basic layout has remained unaltered for over 100 years."

The Macan biography says he rerouted 3, 4, and 5 and built new greens for them in 1922. In 1951, he built a new 12th hole. So it appears it hasn't remained unaltered for 100 years.

Ron,

Who is the John Ball that built the first 9? The great British amateur?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Trenham

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2020, 10:56:41 AM »
I always say I would prefer to all the play US Women Open venues over the all Mens venues.


Places like:


The Orchards
CC of Charleston
Lancaster
Prairie Dunes
Pine Needles
Broadmoor
Indianwood
Five Farms
Plainfield
Salem
Rolling Green
Kahkwa
Northland
CC of Rochester
The Homestead



Proud member of a Doak 3.

Michael Wolf

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Re: All I Want For Christmas
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2020, 11:46:48 AM »
The Walker Cup sites were the first list of courses that I ever specifically set out to play. Interesting to me that Minnesota has hosted at three different clubs. Courses that haven't hosted, that I'd enjoy seeing: SFGC, Camargo, Swinley Forest and St George's Hill. It sounds like the Curtis Cup will be elevated to similar great sites in the UK now that it's under the R&A umbrella. I just wish they'd also open it up to amateurs from continental Europe.


Along with the smaller crowds and relatively purist feel of the Walker and Curtis Cup, I'd think the fact that they are contested at match play contributes to top clubs willingness to host. Of the many things I despise about the Ryder Cup, a top reason is the missed opportunity to watch matches on great golf courses without players or host sites worried about stroke play outcomes. This years President Cup at Royal Melbourne was easily my favorite professional event to watch of the past few years.


A similar list worth seeing are the courses that have held British Amateurs. Bizarre to this American that the Amateur has never been hosted at a Heathland course. But the 21 courses that have hosted are uniformly solid, and would serve as an excellent starting point for golfers ready to venture off the tourist path.


Michael