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MCirba

  • Total Karma: 8
Great thread, thanks.


Ireland has been on the front-burner of gaping holes in my golf course resume for many years now and this new old course makes the hunger pangs all the more acute.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Total Karma: 0
Very positive review from Kevin Markham in today's Irish Examiner:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/golf/arid-40369799.html

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13
Very positive review from Kevin Markham in today's Irish Examiner:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/golf/arid-40369799.html



Yes, that's a very positive review.  I have never been compared to Gaudi before!


I wish he had tried golf course design.  I have a feeling it would have looked a lot different than the work of the new vanguard.

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
A terrific review beautifully written. Congrats. I hope to play the course someday.


Bob









 

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Total Karma: 0
Today's Golfer published their Ireland's Top 100 list on 25th August, and St. Patrick's is not included. I suppose these ranking lists take some time to put together, so it's not surprising that it is not there yet.


https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/

It will be very interesting to see which publication is first to include St. Patrick's in a ranking list, and where it is placed.

I think the hype over Cruit has gone a bit too far. Sure it is very scenic, but is the course itself really that good? Placing it at 39th ahead of Strandhill, Malone, Belvoir Park, Ballybunion (Cashen), North West, Laytown & Bettystown and many other quality courses is a bit silly in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 12:56:08 PM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 6
Today's Golfer published their Ireland's Top 100 list on 25th August, and St. Patrick's is not included. I suppose these ranking lists take some time to put together, so it's not surprising that it is not there yet.


https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/

It will be very interesting to see which publication is first to include St. Patrick's in a ranking list, and where it is placed.

I think the hype over Cruit has gone a bit too far. Sure it is very scenic, but is the course itself really that good? Placing it at 39th ahead of Strandhill, Malone, Belvoir Park, Ballybunion (Cashen), North West, Laytown & Bettystown and many other quality courses is a bit silly in my opinion.



I had a discussion about that with John Casey while I was at Rosapenna last week. They have already had quite a lot of raters through.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

David Jones

  • Total Karma: 0
Today's Golfer published their Ireland's Top 100 list on 25th August, and St. Patrick's is not included. I suppose these ranking lists take some time to put together, so it's not surprising that it is not there yet.


https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/courses/best/golf-courses-in-ireland/

It will be very interesting to see which publication is first to include St. Patrick's in a ranking list, and where it is placed.

I think the hype over Cruit has gone a bit too far. Sure it is very scenic, but is the course itself really that good? Placing it at 39th ahead of Strandhill, Malone, Belvoir Park, Ballybunion (Cashen), North West, Laytown & Bettystown and many other quality courses is a bit silly in my opinion.



The print version of this was out a few months ago and they just got round to putting it online. Chris Bertram who puts this list together is on record as saying he sees it as top 10 in Ireland already and it will threaten the top 5.


The GOLF magazine ranking will be a big one. Where will this, Ardfin, and the new course at Les Bordes land?!

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13
I don’t believe GOLF Magazine will have got enough panelists there this summer to include it, because of the pandemic.  I’ve heard from about a half-dozen.  So we will have to wait and see about that.[size=78%]![/size]


A source mentioned that one of the UK mags is doing a ranking of courses in the EU and that St Patrick’s may figure prominently there.


Realistically, it’s hard to get ranked highly out of the gate in a country where there are at least four iconic courses that a new course would never be ranked above.  Which is fine.  Rankings aren’t the important thing; the course is.


That 2025 Open at Portrush should be good for business, though

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
GOLF magazine have had quite a few panellists travel (I don’t know what constitutes “enough”)… I am here with one right at this moment.


I’m not sure what ranking it will appear in first but it will definitely land in The Irish Golfer one in November because they’ve had at least half of the 8 panellists up here.


My own personal opinion is that I’d want it to land just behind the big 5, not because I don’t think it should be mentioned in the same breath as them (it absolutely should) but more because if you land it too near the top, it just puts undue pressure on it to be shot down by those who don’t agree… and there will be a few of those initially, particularly the less traveled golfer who has never seen anything like the greens or bunkering. Last thing the course needs is to arrive high and slide back.


But make no mistake. This is a GREAT course. I enjoyed it even more this time around and have a further game in 2 hours. In pretty short time - with just a little history behind it - the course should be able to sway even the most cynical. That’s the right moment for it to start rising slowly through that Top-5.


Overall the main thing is it attracts golfers from far and wide to Donegal. This appears to already be happening.


I still plan to write a more detailed review, getting in behind the usual blurb to analyse why it is so good.

Tim Gallant

  • Total Karma: 1


Overall the main thing is it attracts golfers from far and wide to Donegal. This appears to already be happening.



Ally, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've had countless conversations with traveling golfers now looking towards the W/NW next year. I think pre St Patricks, and possibly even greater exposure to places like Carne and Enniscrone, Sligo and Narin & Portnoo, that might not have been the case. With the Open also going back to Portrush in a few years, I see more and more golfers heading up to that part of the world.

James Reader

  • Total Karma: 0


A source mentioned that one of the UK mags is doing a ranking of courses in the EU and that St Patrick’s may figure prominently there.




Today’s Golfer/Golf World have published a ranking of the top 100 Modern Courses (opened in last 30 years) in Europe this month.  St Patrick’s is at number 8.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13

Today’s Golfer/Golf World have published a ranking of the top 100 Modern Courses (opened in last 30 years) in Europe this month.  St Patrick’s is at number 8.


That must be what I was told about.


Can’t think of seven courses in that category I’d rate higher.  Not sure if I can think of one, TBH, but of course, I am biased.

James Reader

  • Total Karma: 0

Today’s Golfer/Golf World have published a ranking of the top 100 Modern Courses (opened in last 30 years) in Europe this month.  St Patrick’s is at number 8.


That must be what I was told about.


Can’t think of seven courses in that category I’d rate higher.  Not sure if I can think of one, TBH, but of course, I am biased.


For what it’s worth the top seven are, in order, Kingsbarns, Trump Aberdeen, Ardfin, Skibo, Castle Stuart, Loch Lomond and Adare.  The comment about St Patrick’s includes “as its understandably raw presentation naturally improves and it settles into its gorgeous seaside landscape, it will be rated even more highly.  In two years only a handful in Ireland will be better; it’s that good.”

Rob Marshall

  • Total Karma: -1
Does it play out of the same clubhouse as Sandy Hills?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13
Does it play out of the same clubhouse as Sandy Hills?


No it will have its own clubhouse out in the middle of that property, with a great view.  But not until 2023.

Mike Sweeney

  • Total Karma: 0
Does it play out of the same clubhouse as Sandy Hills?


No it will have its own clubhouse out in the middle of that property, with a great view.  But not until 2023.


Which means it plays out of the same clubhouse when the question was asked!!


Thanks Tom!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Kevin Markham

  • Total Karma: 0
Does it play out of the same clubhouse as Sandy Hills?


No it will have its own clubhouse out in the middle of that property, with a great view.  But not until 2023.


Which means it plays out of the same clubhouse when the question was asked!!


Thanks Tom!!


It does have its own temporary clubhouse on site. It's a tidy, compact (I think real estate agents would call it 'bijou') wooden chalet set-up. Perfectly adequate until 2023.

I suspect the 100 Modern Courses is following Ally's thinking process - let's not start it too high, too soon. I've played five of those seven above St Patrick's and, for me, St Patrick's trumps every one.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Does it play out of the same clubhouse as Sandy Hills?


No it will have its own clubhouse out in the middle of that property, with a great view.  But not until 2023.


The "temporary" is more than adequate ,with nice clean changing rooms/restrooms, pro shop,snacks and beverages.
Hard to see with Rosapenna 2 minutes away why anyone would need anything else,UNLESS they were playing 36 at St. Patrick's,and I'm sure a simpler solution than an entire Clubhouse would suffice for
the guests, investors and Rosapenna owners.
Perhaps the separate membership for St. Patrick's muddles this simplicity.
Given the scale of St. Patrick's pairing it with another course of smaller scale at the resort for a 36/27 hole day seems a better plan anyway.




Well done on all counts-more later.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 10:31:43 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: -1
Given how new it is will StP be open for play through the forthcoming winter period or will it close for play at some stage and then re-open for play sometime early next year?
Atb

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 6
Given how new it is will StP be open for play through the forthcoming winter period or will it close for play at some stage and then re-open for play sometime early next year?
Atb



It will close for the winter, probably next month. Rosapenna closes for the winter as a whole anyway (at least the hotel does, I'm not sure if the courses stay open for local play).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13
Adam:


The locals do play the original course a bit in the winter months, but St Patrick’s will be closed, for this year at least.  There isn’t nearly enough local play to justify keeping it open.


Jeff:


A separate clubhouse for St Patrick’s has always been part of the deal.  It needn’t be big and fancy but there should definitely be a place to have a beer, enjoy the view, and get ready to go out again.  And the course does return at the 9th, if you only feel like walking 27 holes instead of 36.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Adam:


The locals do play the original course a bit in the winter months, but St Patrick’s will be closed, for this year at least.  There isn’t nearly enough local play to justify keeping it open.


Jeff:


A separate clubhouse for St Patrick’s has always been part of the deal.  It needn’t be big and fancy but there should definitely be a place to have a beer, enjoy the view, and get ready to go out again.  And the course does return at the 9th, if you only feel like walking 27 holes instead of 36.


as does OTM for both 9's and the Coastguard 9-looks like they lost the old 18th on the Coastguard that crossed the road?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Kelly

  • Total Karma: 1
Just played St. Patrick's a few times last week and greatly enjoyed it.  I think it will only get better as the fescue gets firmer, especially around the greens.  It is very different from other Irish links courses and in addition to bringing in international travelers should be very appealing as a weekend destination for Irish golfers.


My only small criticism is that the walks to the next tee are sometimes pretty tough (not long but mostly uphill and on uneven ground)  and I don't how older golfers will like that.  However I think some of that will be mitigated by golfers making their own short cuts and creating additional paths over the years.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
David,
I was at St. Patrick's Tuesday and Saturday of last week.


Obviously, I had HIGH expectations for St. Patrick's. knowing Tom and team's work, and having been on the property before when the two previous St. Patrick's courses were there-which were over very cool terrain but pretty rugged(Hackett and O'Haire).
I must say those high expectations were matched, if not exceeded.
As David mentions, there are some tough green to tee walks.
The course is spectacular, and clearly a course where you need multiple plays with multiple winds and pins to see all the nuances and angles-with a lot of chances to play creative shots.
There is plenty of width to exploit those angles, and plenty of width to allow one to stay ON the course-which is welcome compared to the MUCH improved Sandy Hills, where there is far less width.
I was quite disappointed we had little to no wind for our entire trip, but when it blows hard,I promise you St. Patrick's will be especially the go to amongst the three courses.


I will say it seemed a much tougher walk the first day we played it, not knowing which way the next tee was.
Both days, we played it as the first leg of a 36 hole day, though after our first go round our second round at Old Tom Morris was played at alternate shot-which was a blast-honestly, I could see St. Patrick's as a great venue for Alternate shot with the fairway width and avoidance of hill climbing for 1/2 the team.
The second day seemed far less tiring and we played 18 more at Dunfanaghy, a relatively flat walk.


Highlghts of St. Patrick's
some amazing greensites-many in fact-cool bowls, sideboards etc.
Very hard to tell where the green began and ended-very natural feeling transitions into and around greens
Views-stunning.
width
semi blindness-mitigated by sideboards or angles or both
undulating natural appearing fairways
I need some further reflection, but despite the green to tee walks, this might be my favorite Doak course, but then I'm pretty biased for Donegal in general.

EDIT: I see some commentary from rankings media about the raw condition, and there were multiple signs at the course suggesting move the ball a club length "through the green"
We played 2 four balls over 2 days and never once did anyone touch their ball, nor see any reason to, nor a complaint-with quite a few euros on the line.
Sure one guy hit it into a hole and had to take an unplayable in the marram, but that could happen on the most mature of courses.
I'd say only the greens need a bit of maturity, but they still were wonderfully unique in their continuation of fairway into green-something quite unique in any part of the world-hope it can continue.(and I'm not really a huge fan of pure fescue greens-so far)

I think any discussion of St. Patrick's also needs to be in context of what's already there at the resort.


I have always been a huge fan of the Old Tom Morris course, with small reservations about the continual changes it has had the last 10-20 years. The(now) back nine is one of my favorites in golf, and the(now)Ruddy/Doak front nine seems better every time I return. IMHO a must play at Rosapenna, and I have played it probably a dozen times since my first time there in '97, when you checked in at the Carrigart Inn, when the Old Coastguard 9 was in play and #1 was up where there is now housing.


Over the years, I have previously only played Sandy Hills three times, as its difficulty made bringing mid handicap member groups there very difficult, so I would take them to OTM but generally not Sandy Hills on my trips to Donegal.
BUt they have made great strides at Sandy Hills, cutting back the knee high marram grass, creating far more width.
Many holes look tighter than they are, and often what looks like a pinched fairway opens up quite a bit over a dune.
I only lost one ball, losing my footing trying to hit a 4 iron from eye level like a baseball-toe shanking the ball 100 yards deeper into the marram.
In short, it is far more playable than it used to be and has many, many, great holes and views.
I have to say, it was my biggest surprise of the trip and provides a great compliment to the other two courses, and hopefully continues to improve .
We played the blue tees(they weren't tipped out) at Sandy Hills and my 60 year old assistant shot two under 70, and together we shot 66 as a BB two ball(and we're not that good) so it is far ,far more playable than I remember.


Having St. Patrick's as the marquee, and the continued improvement of OTM and Sandy Links make this a phenomenal three course destination, complete with a great hotel. (we stayed in an air bnb because the hotel was full-despite the courses being virtually empty-but we did have lunch and drinks several days at the hotel on the deck overlooking OTM and the bay-stunning)
The town of Downings also has a lot going for it with three great well known pubs nearby(at least) with The Singing Pub, The Harbour Bar and the Glen Bar all reasonably close to the town.


St. Patrick's seems the perfect compliment to the other two courses, which are destinations themselves.
I used to base in Dunfanaghy(good pubs),Bucrana(good pubs) or Portsalon(just because I love the course and scenery)-Now Downings, in the center of all, is a no brainer, and Rosapenna a core portion of an itinerary.


« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 07:06:59 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

mike_malone

  • Total Karma: 6
David,
I was at St. Patrick's Tuesday and Saturday of last week.


Obviously, I had HIGH expectations for St. Patrick's. knowing Tom and team's work, and having been on the property before when the two previous St. Patrick's courses were there-which were over very cool terrain but pretty rugged(Hackett and O'Haire).
I must say those high expectations were matched, if not exceeded.
As David mentions, there are some tough green to tee walks.
The course is spectacular, and clearly a course where you need multiple plays with multiple winds and pins to see all the nuances and angles-with a lot of chances to play creative shots.
There is plenty of width to exploit those angles, and plenty of width to allow one to stay ON the course-which is welcome compared to the MUCH improved Sandy Hills, where there is far less width.
I was quite disappointed we had little to no wind for our entire trip.


I will say it seemed a much tougher walk the first day we played it, not knowing which way the next tee was.
Both days, we played it as the first leg of a 36 hole day, though after our first go round our second round at Old Tom Morris was played at alternate shot-which was a blast-honestly, I could see St. Patrick's as a great venue for Alternate shot with the fairway width and avoidance of hill climbing for 1/2 the team.
The second day seemed far less tiring and we played 18 more at Dunfanaghy, a relatively flat walk.


Highlghts of St. Patrick's
some amazing greensites-many in fact-cool bowls, sideboards etc.
Very hard to tell where the green began and ended-very natural feeling transitions into and around greens
Views!
width
semi blindness-mitigated by sideboards or angles or both
undulating natural appearing fairways
[size=78%]I need some further reflection, but despite the green to tee walks, this might be my favorite Doak course.[/size]


I think any discussion of St. Patrick's needs to be in context of what's already there at the resort.


I have always been a huge fan of the Old Tom Morris course, with small reservations about the continual changes it has had the last 10-20 years. The(now) back nine is one of my favorites in golf, and the(now)Ruddy/Doak front nine seems better every time I return. IMHO a must play at Rosapenna, and I have played it probably a dozen times since my first time there in '97, when you checked in at the Carrigart Inn, when the Old Coastguard 9 was in play and #1 was up where there is now housing.


Over the years I have only played Sandy Hills three times, as its difficulty made bringing member groups there very difficult, so I would take them to OTM but generally not Sandy Hills on my trips to Donegal.
BUt they have made great strides at Sandy Hills, cutting back the knee high marram grass, creating far more width.
Many holes look tighter than they are, and often what looks like a pinched fairway opens up quite a bit over a dune.
I only lost one ball, losing my footing trying to hit a 4 iron from eye level like a baseball-toe shanking the ball 100 yards deeper into the marram.
In short, it is far more playable than it used to be and has many, many, great holes and views.
I have to say, it was my biggest surprise of the trip and provides a great compliment to the other two courses, and hopefully continues to improve .
We played the blue tees(they weren't tipped out) at Sandy Hills and my 60 year old assistant shot two under 70, and together we shot 66(and we're not that good) so it is far ,far more playable than I remember.


Having St. Patrick's as the marquee, and the continued improvement of OTM and Sandy Links make this a phenomenal three course destination, complete with a first class hotel. (we stayed in an air bnb because the hotel was full-despite the courses being virtually empty-but we did have lunch and drinks at the hotel on the deck overlooking OTM and the bay-stunning)
The town of Downings also has a lot going for it with three great well known pubs nearby(at least) with The Singing Pub, The Harbour Bar and the Glen Bar all reasonably close to the town.


St. Patrick's seems the perfect compliment to the other two courses, which are destinations themselves.
I used to base in Dunfanaghy(good pubs),Bucrana(good pubs) or Portsalon-Now Downings is a no brainer, and Rosapenna a core portion of an itinerary.


Jeff Warne is the definitive source on the west coast of Ireland for me.
AKA Mayday