Are There Two Kinds of "Firm" ?

[Sean_A]

the PGA Tour has a device to measure green firmness and they use it to test each green multiple times per day to try and make them consistent.

Maybe I'm getting old, but wouldn't the game be better with more variability of conditions? The whole "play it as it lies" thing? I get that you don't want one green to be super fast and another slow. But if you cut them at the same height, why isn't that enough? If one green is exposed to the sun and wind and another is protected, by the end of the day, wouldn't you expect the exposed green to play faster and firmer than the protected one? Isn't that part of the fun of the game? A battle of wits with mother nature?

Maybe this is what I like so much about links courses. The imperfections and inconsistencies. The bad bounces and hidden bunkers. The variability.

You mean judgement,experience and course knowledge?
The forgotten skills..
Nowadays most skill is gained in the gym-or so they tell me.


One of the attractions of golf is that it is an outdoor game, yet so many are trying to modify the training, the playing, the teaching, and the conditions to that of an indoor, perfect minimal variable "experience".


As you said, precisely why many of us enjoy the links, but even they are not immune to the phenomenon.


The Thumper has been around awhile-the USGA was using it at The Bridge during the 2010 Mid-Am.


Regarding two kinds of firm-I'd say thatch plays a huge role.
I'd bet you could get the same Thumper reading on two different greens, yet one would repel shots more than the other if it had less thatch.
Gregg Stanley went years at when he first arrived at The Bridge not aerifying the greens in an effort to develop more thatch.

For sure. Those thatch greens on country courses can play crazy firm in dry conditions and soft after decent rains.

I wonder what it costs in man hours to keep thatch out of greens. Its probably a pipe dream for most country courses because they have so few green staff, but it's an interesting question.

This fall Kington was in top nick despite awful greens right after the lock down. It was a stunning transformation.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Firmness testing ... see - “Clegg Hammer” - https://sdinst.com/
Atb

[David Ober]

As a layman, it seems like greens with lots of clay in the base are potentially the most "risky" to get/keep firm without entering a "danger zone"? Lots of clay base here where I live, and over the years I remember courses being very firm before "losing" some of their greens.


Is that true at all? Or just a coincidence?

[Grant Saunders]

I wonder what it costs in man hours to keep thatch out of greens. Its probably a pipe dream for most country course because they have so few green staff, but it's an interesting question.


Ciao

Sean

Heres some numbers for you to consider from an actual course operation in New Zealand (all figures are in NZ dollars!)

Historic maintenance resulting in soft greens:

-Poa dominant surfaces
-Twice yearly coring carried out by contractors $4000 per coring
-Sand applied during coring 60m3 at a cost of $3500 per coring
Fungicide applications due to increase disease attributed to higher thatch levels. Up to 12 applications per year at an average cost of $800 each, $9600 per year
Water use records show yearly volumes of up to 120,000 m3 per season (whole course but the same theories extend). This exceeded consent allowances by 50% and resulted in warnings with the threat of fines and legal action
Sand topdressing still took place accounting for 40m3 at a cost of $2320
Fertiliser applications of up to 500kg Nitrogen per year. Using a base product as a price comparison, the actual figure would have been much higher based on the use of high end products $3500
 
TOTAL COST $30,420

Current maintenance resulting in firm greens:
Browntop dominant surfaces
No coring has been carried out in 4 years $0
No san required for coring $0
Fungicide applications now sit at approx. 2 per year $1600
Water use now sits under 75,000m3 per season. Savings in pumping costs
Sand topdressing is now priortised with bi-weekly dustings accounting for 100m3 at a cost of $5800
Fertiliser applications now supply approx. 110kg of nitrogen per year. Using the same base product for price comparison, $770


TOTAL COST $8,170

There plenty of other factors that influence the maintenance cost of soft vs firm as well. One of the biggest differences was the revenue in bar and greenfees when we stopped the corings. Historically, for a 5 week window after coring, there was simply less play while the greens recovered. Once we ceased, that drop no longer existed.

It costs a lot of money to grow thatch!

[Sean_A]

Thanks Grant. I don't think too much feed and water are issues at the courses I have in mind. These places cycle with weather.

Ciao

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I wonder what it costs in man hours to keep thatch out of greens. Its probably a pipe dream for most country course because they have so few green staff, but it's an interesting question.


Ciao

Sean

Heres some numbers for you to consider from an actual course operation in New Zealand (all figures are in NZ dollars!)

Historic maintenance resulting in soft greens:

-Poa dominant surfaces
-Twice yearly coring carried out by contractors $4000 per coring
-Sand applied during coring 60m3 at a cost of $3500 per coring
Fungicide applications due to increase disease attributed to higher thatch levels. Up to 12 applications per year at an average cost of $800 each, $9600 per year
Water use records show yearly volumes of up to 120,000 m3 per season (whole course but the same theories extend). This exceeded consent allowances by 50% and resulted in warnings with the threat of fines and legal action
Sand topdressing still took place accounting for 40m3 at a cost of $2320
Fertiliser applications of up to 500kg Nitrogen per year. Using a base product as a price comparison, the actual figure would have been much higher based on the use of high end products $3500
 
TOTAL COST $30,420

Current maintenance resulting in firm greens:
Browntop dominant surfaces
No coring has been carried out in 4 years $0
No san required for coring $0
Fungicide applications now sit at approx. 2 per year $1600
Water use now sits under 75,000m3 per season. Savings in pumping costs
Sand topdressing is now priortised with bi-weekly dustings accounting for 100m3 at a cost of $5800
Fertiliser applications now supply approx. 110kg of nitrogen per year. Using the same base product for price comparison, $770


TOTAL COST $8,170

There plenty of other factors that influence the maintenance cost of soft vs firm as well. One of the biggest differences was the revenue in bar and greenfees when we stopped the corings. Historically, for a 5 week window after coring, there was simply less play while the greens recovered. Once we ceased, that drop no longer existed.

It costs a lot of money to grow thatch!

Can't argue with those numbers, although if you ran that program in the transition zone of the US you'd have dirt greens. The climate in NZ is most similar to what in the US, Oregon/Washington?

[Grant Saunders]

Can't argue with those numbers, although if you ran that program in the transition zone of the US you'd have dirt greens. The climate in NZ is most similar to what in the US, Oregon/Washington?

Tom

Im not sure what is a comparable climate to ours but interestingly, experts said we wouldn't be able to run that type of program for our location either.

Turf is a funny industry full of old wives tales and unhealthy competition

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Can't argue with those numbers, although if you ran that program in the transition zone of the US you'd have dirt greens. The climate in NZ is most similar to what in the US, Oregon/Washington?

Tom

Im not sure what is a comparable climate to ours but interestingly, experts said we wouldn't be able to run that type of program for our location either.

Turf is a funny industry full of old wives tales and unhealthy competition

I agree with you, there's a lot of conventional wisdom that is anything but wisdom. There also are some folks that think you can apply the same inputs to a heavy clay soiled inland course in the US that you would to a links course in the UK. If only it were that easy!

[JohnVDB]

I might add that now in The NFL there is field standards that must be met on a weekly basis.  One of them is firmness.  This is determined by a machine that measures surface firmness. I’m sure it’s been used by some super somewhere.  I haven’t used it personally, but they are “a thing”.

I don't know if they use the same tool as the NFL, but the PGA Tour has a device to measure green firmness and they use it to test each green multiple times per day to try and make them consistent.

It's not brand new; I first saw that level of preparation for the US Women's Open at Sebonack in 2013.  They were measuring green speed, moisture content, and firmness across each green, 3x per day.

The USGA calls that machine the "Thumper." 


Bob

Actually the correct name is Tru-Firm.  I once called it Thumper on a broadcast of the US Amateur when I couldn’t remember the name and was corrected.  It drops a weight onto the green and measures the the resistance.  As we're setting up the course in the morning, the championship lead gets the results of that and the stimpmeter readings on his phone and can adjust things if necessary .


As was mentioned above, our agronomists measure the greens multiple times every day for the days leading up a championship and during it.


They use the Tru-Firm, stimpmeters and another device that measures the moisture content in the soil.


Everyday at 2:30 there is a meeting with the agronomist,  championship staff, weather person and the superintendent and his staff to discuss how to manage the greens and the rest of the course for the next round.

[David Ober]

I might add that now in The NFL there is field standards that must be met on a weekly basis.  One of them is firmness.  This is determined by a machine that measures surface firmness. I’m sure it’s been used by some super somewhere.  I haven’t used it personally, but they are “a thing”.

I don't know if they use the same tool as the NFL, but the PGA Tour has a device to measure green firmness and they use it to test each green multiple times per day to try and make them consistent.

It's not brand new; I first saw that level of preparation for the US Women's Open at Sebonack in 2013.  They were measuring green speed, moisture content, and firmness across each green, 3x per day.

The USGA calls that machine the "Thumper." 


Bob

Actually the correct name is Tru-Firm.  I once called it Thumper on a broadcast of the US Amateur when I couldn’t remember the name and was corrected.  It drops a weight onto the green and measures the the resistance.  As we're setting up the course in the morning, the championship lead gets the results of that and the stimpmeter readings on his phone and can adjust things if necessary .


As was mentioned above, our agronomists measure the greens multiple times every day for the days leading up a championship and during it.


They use the Tru-Firm, stimpmeters and another device that measures the moisture content in the soil.


Everyday at 2:30 there is a meeting with the agronomist,  championship staff, weather person and the superintendent and his staff to discuss how to manage the greens and the rest of the course for the next round.

So you're tellin' me that they just kinda ... wing it.