RT Jones Sr. - GOAT?

[David Ober]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.
Pele is the GOAT.
Simone Biles is the GOAT.
Minnesota Fats is the GOAT.

That is the list. RTJ Sr. is not on it.

Ira

Minnesota Fats???


Efren Reyes would like to have a word with you... ;-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGjSvpfu9rE

[Mark_Fine]

For goodness sakes Ira, everyone on this site knows what I am talking about when I talk about the Doak scale.  We are NOT talking about Tom’s own rankings we are talking about just using his scale to do our own.  Wow!! 


I have zero interest in providing my Doak scale numbers for all the RTJ courses I have played but what I will say is most of the RTJ courses that have been mentioned are in that 7 range give or take.  Peachtree, Wilmington South, Firestone, Spyglass, Mauna Kea, Old Watson, Valeramma, Valencia, Point-o-woods, Sotogrande just to name ten for you are all at least a seven.  A flat seven for me is roughy Top 150-400 in the world.  I just passed playing 1600 different courses so lots to compare to. 


You are always quick to state that I am making something up.  I might and do make mistakes but I don’t purposely make shit up 


Tom,
Again I may be wrong but didn’t you give Somerset Hills a Doak 7     How can your own numbers have any credibility when we both know it is at least an 8 

[David Ober]

Ira,
The what?  If the CG is the Confidential Guide, that is Tom's assessment not mine. I just use his scale as do many others to asses golf courses.  We don't all agree with his number for each course and I am sure you don't either.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but calling a course a "Doak 7" when I gave it a score less than 7 is b.s.

Serious question: So if we use the "Doak Scale" but give a course a different rating than you did (as other raters do in your books), then we would just say: "I give that an 8 on the Doak Scale"?

[Mark_Fine]

David,
Tom I am sure will answer but YES! I like Tom’s scale A LOT because it is clear and simple and most golfers can relate to it.  If we all use our own 1-10 scale how do you compare?  Using his scale we all can compare our own assessments.  Years ago Tom, Ran, John, myself and several others who played a ton of top golf courses did a side by side comparison or our Top 250 courses assigning a Doak Scale number to each one.  It was very interesting.  Lots of the same assessments but lots different too.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sure, but nobody is nominating Tom Bendelow for the Mt Rushmore of golf arcjitects, unless Sven meant to.

Maybe not for architects, but definitely on influencers of golf in America.


As I said, his overall impact is vastly underrated.

[Terry Lavin]

Let me just suggest that if he isn’t necessarily the GOAT, or an occupant of the Mount Rushmore of course architects, he surely is in the pantheon of the great architects.


I love this thread, but it is the quintessential “list” thread that just allows people to spew, declaim and declare. Lucky for us a lot of very knowledgeable architects are chiming in.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,
I don't discount Bendelow's contribution to GCA, it was huge but most of his courses were 3s and 4s or less (I trust we agree on that).

Mark:


This kind of statement is exactly what I was getting at.


How do you compare a course built in 1898 against a course built 30, 50, 70 or 100 years later?  It is impossible, and that is essentially what you are doing when you say most of his courses were 3's and 4's.


To further the analogy, would you compare Nanea or any other high budget course against a basic public course built on a meager budget? 


There are many Golden Age courses that have stood the test of time and match up well and in many cases are better than courses built since WWII.  Just take a look at every ranking of top courses in the country.  But you cannot realistically compare the courses built prior to the Golden Age against what came later, as most of them were replaced, reworked or simply abandoned for new sites.  And this is exactly when Bendelow did the bulk of his work. 


Sven

[Ronald Montesano]

MFats got his ass whipped by Mosconi up and down the velvet.


There is no such thing as a greatest of all time, in any endeavor. Someone else always comes along. I hate the term, like I've grown to hate "You've got this."

[Ira Fishman]

MFats got his ass whipped by Mosconi up and down the velvet.


There is no such thing as a greatest of all time, in any endeavor. Someone else always comes along. I hate the term, like I've grown to hate "You've got this."

Yes he did, but there was no serious money at stake. And I agree with you about the GOAT concept. I was just messing with Mark for the false premise about RTJ Sr.


Oh except for MJ and Biles. There actually are GOATS.


Ira

[Ira Fishman]

For goodness sakes Ira, everyone on this site knows what I am talking about when I talk about the Doak scale.  We are NOT talking about Tom’s own rankings we are talking about just using his scale to do our own.  Wow!! 


I have zero interest in providing my Doak scale numbers for all the RTJ courses I have played but what I will say is most of the RTJ courses that have been mentioned are in that 7 range give or take.  Peachtree, Wilmington South, Firestone, Spyglass, Mauna Kea, Old Watson, Valeramma, Valencia, Point-o-woods, Sotogrande just to name ten for you are all at least a seven.  A flat seven for me is roughy Top 150-400 in the world.  I just passed playing 1600 different courses so lots to compare to. 


You are always quick to state that I am making something up.  I might and do make mistakes but I don’t purposely make shit up 


Tom,
Again I may be wrong but didn’t you give Somerset Hills a Doak 7     How can your own numbers have any credibility when we both know it is at least an 8 

Mark,


So you have zero interest, yet you quickly offer your DS numbers to justify your argument?


I do not think that you make sh*t up. I do think that you deflect any post that doesn't fit your agenda. Plus the emojis from the last century are not endearing.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Ronald,
Of course we will never agree on a GOAT and who is to say anyway, but it does make for some interesting and to some extent thoughtful discussion.  RTJ gets very little respect here and maybe that should change.  Maybe this thread will at least make people think a bit more about what he did and accomplished. If it doesn't change their opinion, so be it.

Sven,
It is near impossible to compare courses of different time periods, I agree with you, but we all do it all the time.  I am not dissing Bendelow.  He designed what he designed on purpose and with the budgets he had and for the needs of clients who hired him.  He had a huge positive influence on GCA and on golf in general!  Maybe I am misspoken when I say most of his designs were 3s and 4s (maybe at the time they were considered 7s and 8s) but I don't think you feel that way either.  We all know he did more than 18 stakes on a Sunday but we also know he designed 700+ courses (isn't that the rough number) so he clearly wasn't trying to get the most out of every design he worked on. He didn't have time    You could say the same for someone like RTJ as well since he was involved with sooo many courses but he did manage to have most of them turn out better than what was out there. 

Regarding comparing courses of different time frames, it is difficult for a whole host of reasons.  One of the big challenges/questions is what kind of credit should be given and to who but that is a whole new thread topic.  Take for example the work just done at Winged Foot West.  Did Gil Hanse just make Tillinghast a better architect in the eyes of more people by the work he did there?  Who should get the credit? Tilliinghast or Gil Hanse?  If Gil did the same for RTJ's Old Warson for example and helped get it back on the Top 100 lists where it use to be, does that make RTJ a better architect because he now has another Top 100 back on his resume?  Many (not all) of the great classic courses have not only been "restored" but they have been improved.  Who should that credit go to 

Ira,
I was trying to placate you with some numbers so you don't give me grief that I won't answer your question.  Also part of most lively discussions/debates is to raise points and counter points as well as different views and opinions. I like to think I do it respectfully and I don't hold any grudges if someone disagrees with me as long as they aren't doing so just to be obnoxious.  If I can't defend my position I usually don't take my ball and go home.  Most of these threads especially one like this don't have a right or wrong answer (or even any answer period).  They are meant to get people thinking maybe a little differently as I stated above. 

I am not sure which emojis's you didn't like?  If it were the one's I used to Tom Doak about Somerset Hills, I think he can handle it.

[Jim Sherma]

FYI - the Minnesota Fats that used to play Mosconi was just using the name and not the person it was coined for. The name is from the character in Walter Tevis’ book “The Hustler” which the Paul Newman and Jackie Gleason movie was based on.

[Sven Nilsen]

Swen,
It is near ...

Do me the favor of at least addressing me by the right name.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,


You and Neil can remind me of this hole # at Cashen, I can't get past the cart!!




We had "local guide(s)" that day around Cashen:

Mike,


That looks horrifying to me.


One story about RTJ on the Cashen is him riding on a horse or maybe a donkey during the design and sometimes falling to sleep. Guess they had to make sure he didn’t fall off. Crazy!

[Mark_Fine]

Sorry Sven, I fixed the typo.  I told Ira I make mistakes but not on purpose 

[Chuck Glowacki]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.
Pele is the GOAT.
Simone Biles is the GOAT.
Minnesota Fats is the GOAT.


That is the list. RTJ Sr. is not on it.
Mohamed Ali is the GOAT; how do I know?  He told us so.

Ira

[Tim Martin]

I recently got an email selling discounted cyber foursomes from an RTJ course. They were giving a percentage discount to correspond with their rank on the Americas Toughest Public Courses list. Their words not mine and I don’t know the origin of said list. It goes on to say you can use the savings “in case you need to buy extra balls at the turn.” I don’t see that sales pitch that often any more but I guess from a marketing standpoint you dance with who you brung.

[Bernie Bell]

Interesting list.
https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/top-50-toughest-golf-courses-us-2020

[Tim Martin]

Interesting list.
https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/top-50-toughest-golf-courses-us-2020

The course I mentioned corresponds to this list. Lots of RTJ and Nicklaus efforts referenced.

[Bernie Bell]

Interesting list.
https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/top-50-toughest-golf-courses-us-2020

The course I mentioned corresponds to this list. Lots of RTJ and Nicklaus efforts referenced.

My quick count of the 50:Nicklaus 10Dye 8RTJ 5Strantz 3