5 is tougher than 4

[Tim Martin]

There are no shortage of golf courses where the number one handicap hole is a par five. That list dwindles significantly when attempting to identify the first two handicap holes as a par five and obviously tougher yet to find one with the first three. I could only come up with one for the first four. I’m not looking to quibble over the ratings themselves but rather to identify those that fit. Thanks.


1,2
Mid Pines GC
CC of Charleston
Knickerbocker CC
Pine Valley GC
ANGC
Hamilton Farm
Brae Burn CC (MA)
CC of York
Berkshire Hills CC


1,2,3
CC of Troy
Stanwich Club


1,2,3,4
Salem CC

[Brian Ross]

Tim,

A quick glance through the scorecards that I have handy at the moment would add:

1,2
Old Town Club
Winter Park Golf Club

1,2,3,4
Roaring Gap Club

[Tom Bacsanyi]

On my course the 1, 2, and 4 handicap holes are par 5s, so that would count as just 1, 2 in your accounting correct?

[Tim Martin]

On my course the 1, 2, and 4 handicap holes are par 5s, so that would count as just 1, 2 in your accounting correct?

Tom-That’s correct. I would note that True Blue has 1,3,4,5 but I’m not giving it any credit for purposes of this thread.

[Brian Ross]

Also add Corsicana Country Club and *Brook Hollow Golf Club to the 1,2 list

*BHGC's was before the recent restoration. Not sure if that will change things.

[jeffwarne]

There are no shortage of golf courses where the number one handicap hole is a par five. That list dwindles significantly when attempting to identify the first two handicap holes as a par five and obviously tougher yet to find one with the first three. I could only come up with one for the first four. I’m not looking to quibble over the ratings themselves but rather to identify those that fit. Thanks.


1,2
Mid Pines GC
CC of Charleston
Knickerbocker CC
Pine Valley GC
ANGC
Hamilton Farm
Brae Burn CC (MA)
CC of York
Berkshire Hills CC


1,2,3
CC of Troy
Stanwich Club


1,2,3,4
Salem CC

Amazing how a 480 yard hole labeled as a par 4 is usually #1, but a 480 par 5 is generally 15-18

Statisticians will argue this based on millions of mined data of cards, but if you're a 9, I'm giving you a shot on 1,3, 5,7,9,11,13,15,17 (or vice versa) or a half shot every hole(you take all ties-no shots-a fun way to play)


What's not going to happen is that "9" getting a shot on holes 14,16,17 and 18(or holes 6,8 and 9) based on some over zealous hdcp chairman's misguided interpretation of his course's "cresendo" finish.


Shots should be evenly spaced-period. This allows for srokes to be used in a match if they would otherwise fall late, and also allows for multiple presses to be accounted for while still maintaining the original.The idea that you need a shot on his super tough hole and not on another is rarely borne out in practice. You might need 2 shots on that really tough hole and your one shot is merely wasted.
(I've seen cards where someone getting "4" was getting shots on 7,9 and 17 and 18)
I'll take the shot late in the match on an "easy" hole over one early on a "hard" hole.


I've known more than a few handicap chairs whose handicap closely correlated with the stroke index on hole 9 and 18

[Jim Hoak]

My understanding is that the allocation of handicap holes is generally left up to the Club, but one of the "acceptable" options from the USGA is to use distance as the criterion.  This would make sense if the primary objective of handicap hole allocations is to gave a bogie shooter a shot where he or she needs it most against a scratch player, and the longer the hole the more opportunities exist for a bogie shooter to screw up.  I'm aware of many courses beyond those mentioned that use distance as the key factor, and therefore have all the par 5's as the top handicap holes.

[Jeff Schley]

I've known more than a few handicap chairs whose handicap closely correlated with the stroke index on hole 9 and 18

Boom!  JW calling em out!

[Tim Martin]

My understanding is that the allocation of handicap holes is generally left up to the Club, but one of the "acceptable" options from the USGA is to use distance as the criterion.  This would make sense if the primary objective of handicap hole allocations is to gave a bogie shooter a shot where he or she needs it most against a scratch player, and the longer the hole the more opportunities exist for a bogie shooter to screw up.  I'm aware of many courses beyond those mentioned that use distance as the key factor, and therefore have all the par 5's as the top handicap holes.

Jim-I would be interested to add to the list of the first four being par fives and rated the four toughest. Thanks.

[Ira Fishman]

Cog Hill 4 is a 1,2.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bandon Trails for 1, 2, 3

[Tim Fitz]

Beverly FTW!


7, 11, 2, 18

[Matt_Cohn]

We all understand that handicapping holes has zero to do with difficulty relative to par, but rather is based on the expected difference in scores between scratch and bogey golfers, right?

[Tom_Doak]

We all understand that handicapping holes has zero to do with difficulty relative to par, but rather is based on the expected difference in scores between scratch and bogey golfers, right?

It depends on the club.  In the UK and Australia the holes are usually handicapped based on difficulty relative to par, because so many competitions are at Stableford. 


In the USA, it's somewhere between that and your interpretation.  But there is no consistency in how it's done from one course to another.  Sometimes clients ask me to do it, sometimes the pro does it, sometimes they collect scorecards and compare results. So analyzing scorecards is not really comparing apples to apples.

[Sean_A]

We all understand that handicapping holes has zero to do with difficulty relative to par, but rather is based on the expected difference in scores between scratch and bogey golfers, right?

It depends on the club.  In the UK and Australia the holes are usually handicapped based on difficulty relative to par, because so many competitions are at Stableford. 


In the USA, it's somewhere between that and your interpretation.  But there is no consistency in how it's done from one course to another.  Sometimes clients ask me to do it, sometimes the pro does it, sometimes they collect scorecards and compare results. So analyzing scorecards is not really comparing apples to apples.

It's actually a mix in the UK. Few clubs will have 1 or 18 as #1 handicap regardless of difficulty to par. Few clubs will have an imbalance if indexes per 9 holes regardless of difficulty to par. Within these parameters, yes, difficulty to par is the main element. But usually hole length is a main factor in determining difficulty to par.

Ciao

[Greg Clark]

Looking thru scorecards just in my desk:


1,2
Cordillera Ranch
Mira Vista CC
French Lick - Dye
French Lick - Ross
Sand Creek Station
The Bandit
Winstar - Scissortail
Sahalee CC - South and North both have a par 5 as #1, the East has a five as #1 and #2.


1,2,3
The Clubs at Houston Oaks
Chickasaw Pointe


1,2,3,4
Briggs Ranch GC
Rivermont GC

[Bill Brightly]

Saucon Valley Old and Weyhill courses, both #1 and #2 handicap holes are par fives.
Grace Course, #2, 3 and 4 handicap holes are par fives, but that won't make your list!

[Thomas Dai]

In the U.K. the handicap index for each hole (or stroke index ‘SI’ as its usually referred to) is based on matchplay and is essentially formulated such that the front-9 and back-9 balance out in terms of a match. In addition, low index holes are usually avoided at the start or finish of round, allegedly so as not to favour any particular ability level of player (for/against points to Congu please, not this poster).
This does cause issues in stableford however and some courses have relatively recently taken to having two different SI’s, one for matchplay and one for stableford, the stableford SI usually being taken from the average scores on each hole by all male/female players in singles competitions over a long period of time.
Clear as mud probably. And bare in mind there are different SI’s for males and females.
I wonder if the introduction of the WHS will change this in due course?
Atb

[David Ober]

We all understand that handicapping holes has zero to do with difficulty relative to par, but rather is based on the expected difference in scores between scratch and bogey golfers, right?

It's crazy how few avid golfers understand that this is (at least in the U.S.) the foremost thing to consider when handicapping holes (yes, there are other factors).


It's why I constantly have to explain to my low-handicap buddies why a 215 yard par 3, say, is the 16th handicap hole: "Think about it, Marv. Lots of very good golfers make bogey on this hole. But then again, it's not an especially difficult hole for a 17-capper to make a bogey on though, now is it? He bunts one up 30 yards short of the green, pitches on and two putts. Whereas on even a short par 5 -- especially one with a hazard or two -- the higher 'capper can make a mess of the hole, while you will almost always make 3, 4, or 5."


I should just put that on a little card and hand them out. LOLZ

[Tim Martin]

Looking thru scorecards just in my desk:


1,2
Cordillera Ranch
Mira Vista CC
French Lick - Dye
French Lick - Ross
Sand Creek Station
The Bandit
Winstar - Scissortail
Sahalee CC - South and North both have a par 5 as #1, the East has a five as #1 and #2.


1,2,3
The Clubs at Houston Oaks
Chickasaw Pointe


1,2,3,4
Briggs Ranch GC
Rivermont GC

Greg-I forgot about Rivermont which is great fun to play.

[Philip Gordillo]

Here are Metairie's but our full restoration will begin in January so these will undoubtedly change.


#1 Handicap - Par 5
#2 Handicap - Par 5
#3 Handicap - Par 4 (324yds from tips!)
#4 Handicap - Par 5

[Tyler Kearns]

My home club's #1 & #2 handicap holes are both long 585+ yard par fives.  Under the premise that the #1 handicap hole should be the hole in which there is the greatest scoring difference between a scratch and bogey golfer, par fives make sense.  It is simply harder for a bogey golfer to string 3 decent shots in a row together.


Tyler

[Greg Clark]

Looking thru scorecards just in my desk:


1,2
Cordillera Ranch
Mira Vista CC
French Lick - Dye
French Lick - Ross
Sand Creek Station
The Bandit
Winstar - Scissortail
Sahalee CC - South and North both have a par 5 as #1, the East has a five as #1 and #2.


1,2,3
The Clubs at Houston Oaks
Chickasaw Pointe


1,2,3,4
Briggs Ranch GC
Rivermont GC

Greg-I forgot about Rivermont which is great fun to play.

Indeed it is.  Friendly club as well.