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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2020, 01:35:02 PM »
Jeff,

Good story,  Jim Colbert always seemed like a fun guy to have a few post-round drinks with.

I watched several hours on TV, and its the first time for me seeing the course up close and from lots of angles.  It looks like one of the goals was to have each hole secluded from the rest for effect and perhaps for the game to utilize when the course was first opened.  While I really enjoyed feasting on all the visuals, the concrete work to create the various water features on 17 and 18 seemed to be over-the-top.  I did like the features short and right of the green on the par 3 13th although looks like it would be both a hellish recovery as well as bitch to maintain.

P.S.  After the round one of the players they interviewed, didn't catch the name, said the course is all right out in front of you.  Would you agree with that?


Kalen,


For the most part, Fazio's courses do (as Jim Colbert phrased it) "lay out like a road map."  That said, I have played several, and they probably don't get as much credit for the different stuff they do try.  And, yes, one of the best was the visual deception, on consecutive holes no less, where the first one has a tiny green and gradually decreasing bunker sizes as you go to the green, forcing the perspective, making it longer.  The next hole, a short 4 has an oversized bunker in front of the green, making you think its closer than it is, encouraging you to play shorter.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2020, 01:36:14 PM »
Good post Jeff.  How many desert courses “reflect” their environment.  I guess we shouldn’t build any golf courses in places like that.  Same goes for bunkers on parkland courses.  Talk about unnatural  :)


I think Langford wrote an article on how sand bunkers probably shouldn't be used in Chicago area.  Same reasoning.  That said, no one does that, LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2020, 02:15:53 PM »
I've been to Vegas twice, decades apart. The first time the original (Sinatra-era) Sands was still there; by the second visit it was long gone, replaced by the Venetian. A matter of personal pique, I know, but it's why I can never like Shadow Creek, ie it's the very epitome of the 'Corporate Las Vegas' that took over from the 'Mob Las Vegas' -- accountants instead of gangsters, Cristal instead of scotch, coke instead of Camels, Siegfried & Roy instead of The Rat Pack, and Shadow Creek (that smacks of everywhere and nowhere) instead of the Desert Inn and the Sahara Country Club (that smacked of only one place, Las Vegas).
Of course all that has only a little to do with architecture and golf, but to me there is something much more 'honest' about the Desert Inn than Shadow Creek, and for that matter more honest about mobsters than gov't or corporations:
Remember that old black and white footage with government officials self-righteously condemning the mob and accusing it of destroying lives and society because of its role in drugs, gambling, the numbers racket, and loan-sharking? Well, jump ahead just a few decades and now we have legalized marijuana, organized sports betting, government-run lotto/powerball games in every city, and credit card companies charging 22%!


« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 03:26:22 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JMEvensky

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2020, 03:51:34 PM »
Peter, Moe Green would plotz!

Thomas Dai

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2020, 04:13:01 PM »
Genuine question, out of curiosity, if the irrigation was turned completely off how long would the course survive?
Atb

Rob Marshall

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2020, 04:46:05 PM »
Our old super told me a number of years ago that the DEC was going to start cracking down on water usage on golf courses. Isn’t Shadow Creek a poster child for this?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2020, 04:54:44 PM »
Very few if any golf courses built in the desert would survive long at all.  That is why courses in for example the Phoenix/Scottsdale area are limited to a certain acreage of irrigated turf.  Is it 75 acres?  Someone here may know the number. 

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2020, 05:22:43 PM »
Very few if any golf courses built in the desert would survive long at all.  That is why courses in for example the Phoenix/Scottsdale area are limited to a certain acreage of irrigated turf.  Is it 75 acres?  Someone here may know the number.


If they’re using reclaim water or RO water, it’s probably a welcomed thing for the area. (It wouldn’t surprise me if they were.)
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2020, 05:43:52 PM »
Just heard about this Rankings group on the Telecast.  Any know anything about it?  Top 100 Platinum Clubs - World List


https://clubleadersforum.com/pcow/platinum-clubs-2020-golf-country/

Niall C

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2020, 05:59:01 PM »
Platinum status is the most revered and respected recognition for Private Clubs around the world. Acknowledgment as a Platinum Club is an honor for the Leadership, Members and Staff of the Clubs they represent.

I wonder if the members, secretaries, general managers etc of the clubs listed even know they have this "honor" ?


Niall

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2020, 06:28:38 PM »
I for one am very curious where SC gets is water from; wells or Lake Meade? Surely potable water on the greens, but is there reclaimed water used on the rest of the course?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2020, 06:29:22 PM »
Platinum status is the most revered and respected recognition for Private Clubs around the world. Acknowledgment as a Platinum Club is an honor for the Leadership, Members and Staff of the Clubs they represent.

I wonder if the members, secretaries, general managers etc of the clubs listed even know they have this "honor" ?


Niall


They do.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2020, 07:11:15 PM »
The course probably had little or no play this year
The water is 50/50 well/city
It's all about the golf!

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2020, 08:02:01 PM »
Shadow Creek seems to be a course that wouldn't be able to host a Tour event with fans.  There just isn't room.

Having played in Las Vegas but never at SC, I've enjoyed seeing it on television.

What other courses would be great for an event but lack the space for fans, stands, and the general infrastructure madness of a fully-bore tournament?

WW

goldj

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2020, 12:39:11 AM »
Nearly twenty years ago, Ron Whitten wrote about SC for The NY Times, explaining that Steve Wynn’s vision problems were instrumental in many of the design characteristics.  The following link should get you there.


https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/sports/course-critic.html

William_G

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2020, 08:57:38 AM »
thanks for the article GoldJ
It's all about the golf!

John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2020, 11:15:09 AM »
Just heard about this Rankings group on the Telecast.  Any know anything about it?  Top 100 Platinum Clubs - World List


https://clubleadersforum.com/pcow/platinum-clubs-2020-golf-country/


Unstated criteria $$$$$$$$

Adam Clayman

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2020, 12:03:52 PM »
Nearly twenty years ago, Ron Whitten wrote about SC for The NY Times, explaining that Steve Wynn’s vision problems were instrumental in many of the design characteristics.  The following link should get you there.


https://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/26/sports/course-critic.html


I believe all the corridors go north south due to his macular degeneration. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

AChao

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Re: Nobody wanna talk about Shadow Cr-EEK!?
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2020, 04:54:15 AM »
I've played SC a few times and think it's excellent.  Wade Hampton is better, but Shadow Creek is a great public access course -- albeit with a high green fee and requirement to stay at an MGM property.


Re sunlight ... the holes aren't all N-S, but the course is designed so you don't have to look into the glaring sun much if at all.