[Tom Bacsanyi]

Is there anything even remotely close to the Old Course from a routing standpoint? As in a skinny (in terms of overall footprint) out-and-back with lots of shared fairways and some shared greens? Or is TOC just completely alone in those characteristics?

[V. Kmetz]

I think of the long-noted courses, Pebble and NGLA might be the closest to that OC style footprint (with variation).

[Pat Burke]

Interesting thought


Anyone know the acreage TOC encompasses?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Is there anything even remotely close to the Old Course from a routing standpoint? As in a skinny (in terms of overall footprint) out-and-back with lots of shared fairways and some shared greens? Or is TOC just completely alone in those characteristics?

The shared greens are the only differentiator from a lot of golf courses.


The skinny out and back footprint is there with plenty. The shared fairways is only different in terms of presentation and historic date when each course moved away from them. Shared greens less common.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Interesting thought


Anyone know the acreage TOC encompasses?

I got only around 100 acres using this tool, that seems really small:


https://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-area-calculator-tool.htm#

[Niall C]

Is there anything even remotely close to the Old Course from a routing standpoint? As in a skinny (in terms of overall footprint) out-and-back with lots of shared fairways and some shared greens? Or is TOC just completely alone in those characteristics?

Tom


I'd assumed you were talking about US courses but if not then TOC is generally a traditional out and back links course. It was because of routings like this that UK golfers used to talk of their score "out" and score "in" or "back" when discussing the respective nines. Now, as in most things, we've tended to adopt US terminology by referring to the front nine and back nine.

Other examples of out and back routings would be Troon, Nairn, Dornock, West Kilbride, North Berwick etc. When you think about it there are quite a lot of examples. As Ally says what mainly distinguishes TOC is the double greens but even there you have some out and back links with double greens such as Kilspindie and Balcomie.


In terms of size, 100 acres seems about right for an older championship course.


Niall

[Steve Lang]

   Does the outgoing group off #1 at TOC still have privilege to play versus an incoming group?  Back in '96 I remember the caddies yelling (and cursing) at some members trying to bully their way in front of us coming up 18... was really quite amusing start...


Is that a general rule?  privilege, not the cursing  [size=78%]  [/size]

[Tom_Doak]

The general rule is that homebound players have the right of way, which is why you have to be careful when you are playing some of the outward holes, especially #2 and #5 . . . locals will fire over into the adjoining fairway from #14 and #17 without warning, since they have the right of way.


I'm not sure if there is a different rule for the shared fairway on 1 & 18 . . . possibly, so they can keep tee times moving.

[Jeff_Brauer]

From memory, the ideal of out and back got knocked off the pedestal once Muirfield showed the value of "triangulated routing," which had holes consistently playing in different wind directions.  Not sure what original routings looked like, but I think the modern version dates to 1892.

[Tom_Doak]

From memory, the ideal of out and back got knocked off the pedestal once Muirfield showed the value of "triangulated routing," which had holes consistently playing in different wind directions.  Not sure what original routings looked like, but I think the modern version dates to 1892.

The original 1891 routing for Muirfield had a clockwise loop of eight holes around the outside, and then the other ten running "more or less higgledy-piggledy within that outer rim," as my friend Archie Baird wrote in their club history.  The triangles started to appear in the 1920 routing, and were finalized in present form in 1928.

[Andrew Harvie]

Before the routing switched, Banff Springs was very similar

[Sean_A]

From memory, the ideal of out and back got knocked off the pedestal once Muirfield showed the value of "triangulated routing," which had holes consistently playing in different wind directions.  Not sure what original routings looked like, but I think the modern version dates to 1892.

The original 1891 routing for Muirfield had a clockwise loop of eight holes around the outside, and then the other ten running "more or less higgledy-piggledy within that outer rim," as my friend Archie Baird wrote in their club history.  The triangles started to appear in the 1920 routing, and were finalized in present form in 1928.

Yep, OTM gets no credit for the Muirfield routing and he deserves plenty. Colt perfected the routing, but the general idea was OTM's.


Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Did Simpson have anything to do with the routing at Muirfield? He was a huge advocate of triangles.


Portmarnock was the course alongside Muirfield that initiated circular routing.

[Tom_Doak]

Did Simpson have anything to do with the routing at Muirfield? He was a huge advocate of triangles.


Portmarnock was the course alongside Muirfield that initiated circular routing.

Somewhere I have a copy of Simpson's consulting report for Muirfield, which Archie Baird gave to me.  It is an absolute classic piece of writing.  But I don't think he re-routed any of the holes, I think his suggestions were just after the 1928 re-routing, which eliminated the opening par-3.

[Peter Pallotta]

So much architecture on so compact an acreage with so narrow a configuration that even Bill Coore could've walked the site and found the golf holes in less than a day — and yet the resulting routing and golf course has charmed, challenged and beguiled golfers great and small for 150+ years.

It’s remarkable that the concept hasn’t been embraced (and copied hundreds of times) in America, especially with all the current talk about sustainability and costs and the environment. That it hasn’t seems the ultimate proof of Joe H’s observation that: “There is no money in doing less”.

Indeed, it seems that for decades most architects and big money developers have come not only to praise the Old Course but to bury it too!

[Niall C]

Did Simpson have anything to do with the routing at Muirfield? He was a huge advocate of triangles.


Portmarnock was the course alongside Muirfield that initiated circular routing.

Somewhere I have a copy of Simpson's consulting report for Muirfield, which Archie Baird gave to me.  It is an absolute classic piece of writing.  But I don't think he re-routed any of the holes, I think his suggestions were just after the 1928 re-routing, which eliminated the opening par-3.

Tom


I've seen it and it is indeed a no holds barred critique of Muirfield and Harry Colt's previous efforts. Simpson must have known that word would get back to Colt but he said it none the less. I'm speaking from memory but agree that he didn't really change the routing.


Niall

[Ira Fishman]

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1808.0/nowap.html



Ira

[Tom Bacsanyi]

So much architecture on so compact an acreage with so narrow a configuration that even Bill Coore could've walked the site and found the golf holes in less than a day — and yet the resulting routing and golf course has charmed, challenged and beguiled golfers great and small for 150+ years.

It’s remarkable that the concept hasn’t been embraced (and copied hundreds of times) in America, especially with all the current talk about sustainability and costs and the environment. That it hasn’t seems the ultimate proof of Joe H’s observation that: “There is no money in doing less”.

Indeed, it seems that for decades most architects and big money developers have come not only to praise the Old Course but to bury it too!

That's kind of why I brought it up, it seems like you could save a lot of money on such a layout, as it almost ends up being a really big, wide 9 hole golf course.


On the flip side, safety has to be a huge concern, which Doak touched on. Balls will always end up toward the center of the course, and on opposing holes this can be problematic. The other problem is I doubt there's a ton of sites in the US where this would make sense, as parcels tend to be square, not serpentine and skinny. I could see it being a thing in very hilly or mountainous regions, where you could squeeze more golf holes into a narrow valley if you just comboed some greens and fairways.

[Tom_Doak]

The main reason you don't see long, linear routings like that often is that we don't usually work on long, linear sites -- that, and many client's fondness for returning nines, which would ask you to put the clubhouse in the middle of the string.


The Loop is basically routed along the outer edge of the property at Forest Dunes, but it would have been too short if I had just gone out to the end and back, so I zigzagged a couple of times to get there.  In the end, that saved the design, because the changes of direction provided a much greater diversity of green settings between the Red and Black courses:  approaching the greens from 90 degrees apart is a lot more interesting than approaching them all from 180 degrees apart.

[Mark Chaplin]

Surely the routings are because lots of  suitable linksland sites are a fairly thin strip of coastline.

[Simon Holt]

Is the out and back nature of the Old Course simply a product of the evolution of the game? Originally playing to the same physical holes in the ground on the way out and in; 11 out, 11 in - which became 9 out and 9 in.  Then finally 18 separate physical holes in the ground (famously now 7 shared greens and 4 singles) as golf became more popular and golfers on opposing 9s tended to collide.

[Sean_A]

Surely the routings are because lots of  suitable linksland sites are a fairly thin strip of coastline.

Of course. The fact that TOC has shared greens is beside the point. There could easily be 18 greens. The routing was a needs must situation, not so different from many other links. Not many people think such an out and back layout is ideal because too many holes play with more or less the same wind direction. Besides original restrictions in terms of not impinging on arable land, many routings sacrifice wind direction in the design for more interesting easier to maintain terrain.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Is there as much shared fairway as there once was?
Read a few times recently that there's now more/wider rough between some of the 'out' holes and some of the 'in' holes these days, eg left of 17.
atb

[Simon Holt]

Hi Thomas,


I think it would be unfair to say that, considering for the most part, the shared fairways are pretty much as they were. 


2 and 17 maybe not quite as much as people would like but 1&18, 3&16, 4&15 are properly shared.  5 and 14 pretty much are as it's divided by the step down drop in elevation rather than rough, 6&13 share, 7&12 have never really been applicable as 7 shares more with 11 given the angles, then 9&10 are very much shared.


Simon

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Simon. Nice to hear. Sometimes bad news spreads more than good.
atb

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