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JMEvensky

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2020, 03:50:55 PM »

Too often I hear large "scale" as the reason for large bunkers, which are a nightmare for the average guy as well as maintenance and never considered by an elite player as they strike no fear-in fact opportunity. A small one will be easier to randomly avoid by a novice and a potential headache and therefore considered by the elite.



I think this is it in a nutshell. Large bunkers are a very expensive way to punish bad players while making it easier for good players. Seems to me if we're going to spend the maintenance money, short grass would be a lot better way to spend it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2020, 04:53:44 PM »

Landscape Architecture has taken over Golf Design


I'm not sure about this.  Yes, I have a landscape architecture degree, but I never learned anything about golf course architecture at college, and we never considered sand-scapes or other eye candy as part of a park or some other project.  I don't remember them even emphasizing "scale" as a reason to build big things.


I think 90% of it is driven by personal taste and by the desire for photographic appeal.  As Mr. Dye observed 35-40 years ago, "everyone wants every hole to be a postcard now".


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2020, 05:14:21 PM »
Interesting take.  I have an LA degree, as well and we surely studied proportion, balance, etc. as design principles, which I think anyone in the design biz could probably see, whether college trained or not (although there are several courses where I am amazed that the gca doesn't see some of the generally recognized good artistic traits.  Photographic appeal is another word for it).


LA is more than artistic composition, its about grading, drainage, layout, soils, and all the technical stuff needed to implement any kind of landscape plan.  You could always tell the people in LA studios who would end up having their own firm, and which ones would trend towards being park district administrators....


And, all that said, I don't know why landscape architecture is a bad influence on gca.  I mean, no one ever taught me specifically to build bigger bolder features in LA school.  As I alluded, and others have, that all came later after we got in the field of golf courses.  We do want the courses to be artistic, its just that the outside factors we have discussed combined to make a generation of architects think bigger and bolder.


And, come to think of it, perhaps some of it is related to surrounding housing, i.e., the bunkers need to look good from the perimeters and perhaps from further away (i.e., off the golf course)


So, at least part of this could be considered a discussion on whether big bunkers violate some artistic principles, and don't work as well as they should, over whether they should just never be that big.  And, I suspect the answer is probably site specific in many ways. Maybe it was just the trend to stamp signature styles everywhere over designing for the individual site that led to a trend of overused and oversized bunkers.  No doubt, what the market wants is a bigger design criteria than what is "good pure design" whatever that may be.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2020, 07:51:45 PM »
My primary concern about building way fewer bunkers in Houston was whether the public golfers would feel cheated somehow by the lack of obvious features.  So, subconsciously, I guess my default position is that people want things to look at.


The great thing about "no bunkers" is that you don't have to worry about how big to build them, because they are always "in scale"  :D


Incidentally, practically none of the Tour players I spoke to during the week even seemed to notice the scarcity of bunkering, except indirectly in commenting about how the ball runs away from the greens.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2020, 08:16:04 PM »
When I think of ‘landscape architecture’ my mind turns to the landscape more than to the architecture. I think of Central Park in NYC — specifically the intention behind its creation and its main function and purpose. Much different for golf courses, any and all golf courses; but the ‘landscape’ aspect of modern gca must similarly be serving a significant function, some purpose that meets the wants & needs of today’s golfers. If it didn’t Don could never have suggested it, because it wouldn’t be a noticeable or noteworthy or significant aspect of current designs.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2020, 11:01:40 AM »

In my mid level practice and budget conscious clients, one of the early discussions is always maintenance costs, and specifically bunkers.  As I noted above, bunkers designed for machine maintenance and lowest cost tend to be bigger.  Bunkers designed with softer base slopes to minimize washouts tend to get bigger (because a 20% slope takes less room to rise than a 30% slope).  That, in addition to matching both sand and grass tongues to machinery.  If cost is not an object, those can be free formed for arts sake.

And, let's face it.  When bunker liners became almost standard, a lot of bunker design theory changed.  At $6-10 per SF (shaping, compacting, drainage, liner, white sand, sodding the banks back) many of us had the same epiphany.....>100,000 SF of sand bunker cost a lot of money, and 50K SF started looking pretty good to owners and supers as well.  But, even more than that, with early liners, which required hand raking, instead of 20 foot wide sand lobes for machines, the basic desire was to make those smaller to require less hand raking.  If grass noses were going to be hand mown, or left somewhat wild, as is more fashionable now, they can be any size, but also trend to smaller.  Thus, smaller bunkers started to make loads and loads of sense.


And, now many gca's really did the "sea of sand" or cluster of bunkers on a regular basis?  Steve Smyers comes to mind, although that is as much quantity of bunkers over size of each.  I think Tom is right to a degree.  Somewhere along the way, just to stand out, someone did larger or more sand bunkers.  Eventually, nearly everyone did it, so a lot of large dramatic bunkers no longer started to stand out, so a few different architects started looking for something else to do.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2020, 06:51:52 PM »
Most bunkers are built much larger than necessary in order to look good, not to play well.
And would it also be fair to say that most bunkers on parkland golf course probably don’t even need to exist?
Atb


later edit - spelling corrected.


A few of you might question the need for parkland courses to exist.


I think that some fairway bunkers are too deep for the length of shot to the green (and yes, I generally support proportionality in design), and some have unnecessary tongues blocking shots barely off the fairway.


It is far better to have fewer, well-built and maintained bunkers than many which are not.  My home club is beautifully bunkered but very poorly maintained (the bunkers).

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2020, 08:10:43 PM »
I don't think big bunkers are necessarily the problem, I think overall bunker acreage is more of a problem. It would actually be way worse to have 2 acres of small bunkers vs. 2 acres of large bunkers. 2 acres of large bunkers would likely be easier to maintain as there would be less of them, you could machine rake most of them, and you could hopefully get a riding mower around most of them. Small bunkers would likely be steeper faced leading to more hand/fly mowing, and more hand raking.


I like the 1935 Augusta model, big bunkers, but 22 of them total without flashed faces and without the short cut going right up to the edge.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Thomas Dai

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2020, 03:56:52 AM »
One of the great challengers of small bunkers can be the difficulty of stance when the ball or your feet or your swing are in some way impeded by the bunker edges.
atb

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2020, 08:28:34 AM »
Working in the west coast of Ireland wind, even small bunkers can end up being too big.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 08:59:50 AM »
Personally I dislike courses with bunkers of similar size and shapes a la cookie cutters. Variety is the spice of life and it makes it more interesting when the bunkers are of varying sizes and shapes with a similar design language throughout.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2020, 10:00:23 AM »
Ben,


I agree.  I sort of keep a mental checklist of different bunker styles to use, i.e., cluster of pots, long strip bunkers, etc. and try to make every bunker complex a bit unique from others.  There are those, however, that seem to feel that design consistency is the same as design continuity, but I disagree.  I believe that differently styled bunkers drawn by the gca, and/or built by the same shapers still have enough family traits to read as within the same course theme.


That said, I did get a lot of resistance to designing a long strip bunker well away from a green, or along a fw.  There is often great pressure from owner or super to reduce to absolute minimum possible.  Also, if form follows function, at least theoretically I get the argument that artistic variety isn't considered function as much as ornamentation, which at least in building architecture got pooh poohed in the minimalist phase/era.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2020, 07:03:54 PM »
   One of our courses had a major overhaul a couple of years ago.  Sand area and number of bunkers were about halved. I emailed our state's director of ratings and asked how much the renovation changed course rating and slope. Unfortunately that data is no longer available, but the observation was made that the change was very little. The percentage of green frontage by bunkers is the largest determinant and this change was negligible.  Fairway bunkering changes were net neutral, some landing areas increased, others decreased.
   Before and after PDFs showing the courses were included. Anyone interested can PM me.  I'm not technical enough to post.   

Tim Gallant

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2020, 02:17:24 PM »
Discuss.


Landscape Architecture has taken over Golf Design


I wrote a long , similar response before(probably posted on wrong thread:)
Something to the effect of "if we remove overgrown trees, we suddenly have to enlarge bunkers?"
Too often I hear large "scale" as the reason for large bunkers, which are a nightmare for the average guy as well as maintenance and never considered by an elite player as they strike no fear-in fact opportunity. A small one will be easier to randomly avoid by a novice and a potential headache and therefore considered by the elite.
But Don' post was what I was thinking when I saw the thread


Jeff,


I was struck by your post, which is a question I was asking myself when I saw some photos of the 16th at The Golf Club in Ohio.


Here is photo of the 'before' tree clearance:


https://twitter.com/LinksGems/status/1329286885362065408/photo/3


Here is a photo 'after' some tree clearance on the hole:


https://twitter.com/LongJTM/status/1329512588347105281/photo/1


I think it's a neat par-3. When I saw the tree clearance, my initial thought was that with the corridor opened more, the bunkers looked quite small, which isn't something I thought when I played there pre-tree removal.


Not saying that one is necessarily better, but I did start thinking like you 'With the trees out, do they now need to expand the bunkers to balance proportions?'

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2020, 02:39:39 PM »

I think it's a neat par-3. When I saw the tree clearance, my initial thought was that with the corridor opened more, the bunkers looked quite small, which isn't something I thought when I played there pre-tree removal.


Not saying that one is necessarily better, but I did start thinking like you 'With the trees out, do they now need to would it look better if they would expand the bunkers to balance proportions?'


Fixed that for you, to make the point clearer.  The discussion is all about how the hole looks, and not at all about how it plays.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2020, 02:58:12 PM »

I think it's a neat par-3. When I saw the tree clearance, my initial thought was that with the corridor opened more, the bunkers looked quite small, which isn't something I thought when I played there pre-tree removal.


Not saying that one is necessarily better, but I did start thinking like you 'With the trees out, do they now need to would it look better if they would expand the bunkers to balance proportions?'


Fixed that for you, to make the point clearer.  The discussion is all about how the hole looks, and not at all about how it plays.


Good spot, and you're correct - I was thinking about the visual aspect.


As someone who worked for Dye and probably knows TGC well, what are your thoughts on the 16th as it relates to the points above?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2020, 03:26:04 PM »

As someone who worked for Dye and probably knows TGC well, what are your thoughts on the 16th as it relates to the points above?


I have only been back to The Golf Club once in the last 30 years, but I would not change a thing there.

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2020, 03:46:37 PM »

Landscape Architecture has taken over Golf Design


I'm not sure about this.  Yes, I have a landscape architecture degree...


My quip was pithy for sure, but it seems to me in our business of golf course creation that we do spend a lot of time on some projects working on features that are not really related to playing the game itself.
At MPGC it is well documented that you did not build many bunkers. But does anyone really think #4, #13 or #15 would have been more attractive with sand?  I think we often don’t know the answers to that question because we have so few examples as we often default to adding sand for framing or “composition” reasons.  I find those holes to be very attractive in that environment.  The fact that lack of sand improved playability for the best players and reduces maintenance and construction costs is an added bonus.
So the question has to be, why are we not seeing more of your approach?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2020, 04:21:16 PM »

So the question has to be, why are we not seeing more of your approach?


Shapers gotta shape?


A lot of renovations are just bunker makeovers, so they're going to be judged on the basis of making the bunkers look good.  Few clubs want to close the course and spend the $ to build greens like the 4th or 13th at Memorial Park, or some of our greens at Concord in Australia.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Most Bunkers Are Too Big
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2020, 04:13:00 AM »
With seemingly quite a bit of use of artificial materials in bunker construction these days are we far away from having what I shall term 'drop-in bunkers', ie manufactured offsite in a factory, trucked-in and positioned by crane?
Different shapes, depths and sizes available including built-in drainage and even pipework for lip irrigation.
atb

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