"Dark Ages" golf courses renovated in Golden Age style?

[Ben Hollerbach]

What are some examples of a respected 1950's - 1980's era course that was renovated it in the style of a specific architect in order simulate a golden age golf course?

[Mark_Fine]

Respected is a subjective word but I have worked on several (just started another one last week outside Philly).  The one that we finished up this past spring was Bethlehem GC (a 1950's Gordon design).  If you ask the locals, it is very much respected 


Got to run. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

Mark,

In what golden age architects style did you renovate the golf course to look like?



Maybe to clarify my original question, I'm looking for situations in which someone was brought in to renovate Dick Wilson's NCR courses to look like Donald Ross had originally designed them. Granted this is fictitious, but are there real examples of similar renovations?

[Mike_Trenham]

Ceaderbrook in Montgomery County PA is working on a master plan with Jaeger Kovich that would add some Tillinghast inspired characteristics.  Tilly was the designer of its earlier course on property closer to the city.

[Mark_Fine]

Ben,
The answer to your question is Gordon in the case of Bethlehem since it was a Gordon design.  Gordon studied under Flynn so we added some Flynn influence as well (Flynn was the better architect). Gordon often got repetitive particularly with his bunkering schemes so we mitigated some of that.  We worked hard to get the tie-ins right around all the greensites which meant changes to most every green and the surrounds (on many of the greens we removed over two feet of sand that had been splashed up from the bunkers).  The goal was to have the finished product look like we were not there and the course to look and feel like a higher end/well maintained Gordon course. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

Mark,


Would you classify that as more of a Gordon restoration with a bit more Flynn influence?


To use Bethlehem as an example, the scenario that I'm curious in finding would be if you were asked to renovate the golf course to look like Flynn was the original architect, cutting Gordon out of the course's history all together?

[Bernie Bell]

1.  There are plans afoot with respect to Seven Oaks at Colgate (RTJ), which I think qualifies as well-respected.  Others here know much more than I if they're free to comment.  As I understand it, the work that is contemplated is thought to be more in line with keeping an RTJ style than hearkening back to some earlier guy who had nothing to do with the course.  RTJ did at least 13 different plans before the school scraped up money to build, and even then, there apparently wasn't enough to do everything he laid out.
2.  In a renovation, why "simulate" something?  Seems entirely derivative to me.  I'd be more interested in someone doing something new and creative to improve a solid 1950s/60s routing than I am in someone trying their hand at "Ross style" or "Mackenzie style" on courses those fellows had nothing to do with.  My .02 is those 50s/60s courses got a lot of things right and there's a reason they're holding up while the fad courses come and, in many cases, go. 

[Mark_Fine]

Ben,
At Bethlehem, they liked their Gordon history so we tried to keep it Gordon.  The only reason we added what I would call Flynn characteristics is because Gordon and Flynn worked together for years (and parts of the course had changed anyway).  This project was NOT a restoration nor intended to be.  We did restore some aspects but changed others.  Remember, most people wouldn't know the difference of who did what or even know the names Gordon and Flynn.  The players that play there also didn't want a radically different experience.  The ultimate goal on a course like this was to make it better but not look brand new.  As I said, I wanted it to look like a high end Gordon design when all said and done.


As far as your second question, a better example would be Bucknell GC.  Nine holes are Loeffler and nine holes are Ault Clark.  The goal at that project was to make the whole 18 look like Loeffler as they love the Loeffler holes and don't care for the Ault Clark holes (the course looked schizophrenic).  In that case, I studied extensively about Loeffler and went to see many of his designs (what is left of them) and tried to incorporate those kind of features into the other nine holes so it looked like an 18 hole Loeffler design.  Does that answer your question?


Bernie,
I am not sure why someone would try to make a course look like Ross for example if there is no history of Ross on that design?  I guess you could do that if you want but I might question it.     

[Bernie Bell]

Bernie,
I am not sure why someone would try to make a course look like Ross for example if there is no history of Ross on that design?  I guess you could do that if you want but I might question it.

Mark - See #2 above.  I thought that the premise of original post assumed no prior history.
Maybe on this topic, maybe not, but what was your goal at Waynesboro?  Simply to rescue the island hole?  How much of what is there is Ault, and how much if anything could you learn about original design (from so-called Golden Age I believe)? 

[Mark_Fine]

Bernie,
I took the question differently but see what Ben was asking.  The Bucknell GC example is more in line with his question.     


Anyway the work we did at Waynesboro on the island green was tied to flood damage.  The hole was literally destroyed by back to back floods.  I was asked to come in to rebuild it “in place” as best we could.  We did that and in the process raised the surface of the green about two feet.  We also reinforced the stone wall around it.  We also added some green contour (basically we added a mound in the back right portion of the green and bleed the slope into that back third of the new green surface).  This not only added some character but will help with surface drainage just in case a flood would crest the stone wall again (it would have to be a major flood to do that but these days stuff happens).   We didn’t want the newly built hole to stand out from the others so the overall changes were modest.  Some trees were removed to open up sight lines.  I think it turned out great.  The course could use some more attention but that is for the members to decide. 

[Kyle Harris]

So...


At what point of throwing names around on these kinds of projects does the fact that said name was never paid turn into theft of intellectual property?

Perhaps not in a legal sense but there are a few places that have zero connection to an architect yet claim that architect as their designer because of some later work either being inspired by some architect's interpretation OR directly using plans paid for, bought, and used by another club.

I'd love a(nother) FREE Alister Mackenzie golf course for sure!

[Tim Martin]

1.  There are plans afoot with respect to Seven Oaks at Colgate (RTJ), which I think qualifies as well-respected.  Others here know much more than I if they're free to comment.  As I understand it, the work that is contemplated is thought to be more in line with keeping an RTJ style than hearkening back to some earlier guy who had nothing to do with the course.  RTJ did at least 13 different plans before the school scraped up money to build, and even then, there apparently wasn't enough to do everything he laid out.
2.  In a renovation, why "simulate" something?  Seems entirely derivative to me.  I'd be more interested in someone doing something new and creative to improve a solid 1950s/60s routing than I am in someone trying their hand at "Ross style" or "Mackenzie style" on courses those fellows had nothing to do with.  My .02 is those 50s/60s courses got a lot of things right and there's a reason they're holding up while the fad courses come and, in many cases, go.

Bernie-I have always heard praise for Seven Oaks and agree that trying to reinterpret it in the style of someone other than RTJ is a missed opportunity. He did build a few good ones right?

[Ben Hollerbach]

My original intent, although possibly not explained well, is to identify courses that were held in high esteem a half century ago who's past prominence and history were later discarded in a renovation counter to the style of the original architect. Specifically evoking the style of a different architect in the redesign.

We've seen examples of new courses intended to mimic the work of past greats, Old Mac and Black Creek for example, and there have been no name courses that have been redesigned in a completely different style than the original. But has this happened with a course that was once seen favorably in the public eye? (e.g. hosted a major championship or regular tour event, once ranked or written about frequently)


Mark,

Bucknell sounds pretty close to what I'm looking for. Did Ault make any changes to the original 9 in the 60's? Also, how high profile was Bucknell back in the day? One aspect I'm very curious about is the shift is reputation and if a course would foregoe the design that built up their reputation because that architect / style was no longer popular.


Kyle,


In the case of courses such as Old Mac and Black Creek, using the inspired by tag is probably sufficient protection. In other cases, If the inspired by architect did do some work on the course originally that may also be enough. I would hope that no course would blatantly claim their freshly renovated course was a MacKenzie design.


It's highly possible this scenario has never happened before. Odds are an RTJ or Dick Wilson design that held acclaim in years past would want to hang onto that history. But as golf courses build before the 70's are now past the 50 year mark and many of the original members are no longer around, I wonder if memberships with an affinity towards the golden age are getting rid of their dark age courses for a design reminiscent of the favorite classical architects.


Timewise, courses built in the 50's and 60's today are nearly as old as the classic era courses were when the restoration movement really started up. Based on the popular view of today, it seems they will not get the same preservation treatment.

[Mark_Fine]

Ben,
Fortunately most of the Loeffler greens remained untouched and the bunkers that were changed or removed we can restore because we have good aerials and photos.  It is hard to say what kind of reputation Bucknell had back in the day but there are a lot of Oakmont members who went to Bucknell University so you can imagine they are passionate about Loeffler and very supportive of all the work we have done on the golf course over the years.