Patterns in Design ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why did CBM and SR design two golf courses, Yale and Piping Rock with a ninth hole that was a par 3 ?

Not just any par 3, but wonderful Biarritz par 3's

Was it part of their template, that not only would they duplicate holes, but place them in a certain order on the golf course.

Do all of their Redan's appear early on the golf course, on the front nine ?

Is there a general order to the appearance of their template holes on the golf courses they designed ?

Other architects including Flynn and AWT also designed superior golf courses with the ninth hole as a par 3, as in Merion and Quaker Ridge.

What other classic and non-classic courses end the front nine with a par 3 ?

[JDoyle]

Pat,

The CC of Fairfield (Raynor) ends with a terrific par 3 redan hole that I have mentioned on other posts on this course.  It ends the outer loop front nine and delivers the player to beginning of the interior back nine.  This routing is the topic of another current thread.

I am not sure why or even if there is a pattern here.  Perhaps George Bahto can share some thoughts on this topic.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Interesting observation on your part but I'd doubt there probably was an actual pattern on the way various holes such as redans and biarrtizes were placed on the course or on the routing sequence.

One of my biggest interests on that note is how few, other than architects seem to truly understand how the nature of routing itself may just not allow for that type of patterning (without of course complete engineering and manufacturing).

An architect who uses natural landforms more sympathetically would tend to just find types of holes where the landforms tell him or give it to him and also very much where that whole jigsaw puzzle of balance and variety routing tells they should be in sort of a progressive routing sequence manner.

On the other hand, thinking about redan holes on Macdonald/Raynor courses it does appear that almost all Redans come on the front nine and that many Edans come on the back. Biarritzes and shorts seem to be on both and then of course there was NGLA where MacD said although he might have wanted to include a Biarritz he couldn't find the place for it on that land or in a routing context.

As for the famous redan at NGLA, it's on the front nine now but we do know that when the course was designed and built it was on the back nine!

[A_Clay_Man]

Wouldn't the key factor be space to complete a loop?

I don't know if the two examples you give are out and in courses, or loops, but didn't these guys use the natural features first, then make the routing work around them?

[TEPaul]

Adam:

All the natural features and all the potential natural landforms in a routing sense are like the "pieces" of a jigsaw puzzle--you can't fit them together (or pattern them) anyway you want to. The only way you can do a routing (jigsaw puzzle) like that is to make unlimited changes to the place. Unfortunately, when architects get into doing that they wipe out interesting natural features and interesting natural landforms.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman & TEPaul,

Forget natural landforms, that's a myth  

These guys were contractors, manufacturers of holes, not explorers, discovering new land.

The Biarritz's and Redans were built, not fallen over on their tour of the property.

TEPaul,

Due to the benign nature of the 9th (nee 18th) hole at NGLA and the dramatic nature of the current 17th and 18th,
It causes me to question if the course was actually designed to be  played in that rotation, or was it intended to be a temporary rotation ?

Perhaps George Bahto can clear this up.

[A_Clay_Man]

Boys, are there natural landforms, on the other holes, that may have caused them to have to construct the biarritzes and others, so as to allow the routing to work mo' better?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

I think that they were so talented that they could put pretty much whatever they wanted on that land.

I don't think that there was but one hole design that the land would permit.

They created what they wanted, at NGLA, Yale and others.

Long before the PGA Tour adopted the slogan,  "These guys are good", CBM, SR and CB embodied it.

[SPDB]

I think it is just a coincidence.

At Piping, CBM had thought he would have had use of the interior polo field, and I have heard that he had routed it as such, so its possible that the Biarritz was a back up plan.

Let's look at "Short" holes:

They come early at NGLA and Yale. But at Creek and PRC they are both the 17th.

Although saying this, I do think that the one pattern they had was a par 5 18th with lots of interior hazards.
PRC, Creek, Yale, Yeamans.

[RJ_Daley]

I'll believe whatever George has to say about this.  But, at this point, I would tend to believe that CB, Seth and Banks did consider the land, its dimensions and overall shape as a matter of routing first then terrain, and let that dictate where to fit in their theme holes.  While the holes may be manufactured in their themes, they still had to fit in where the land allowed the most efficient match of the theme features and what was already there and where the shape took the route.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RJDaley,

That was my initial thought, but upon reflection of their work, I have my doubts.

Sean mentions CBM's intended use of the polo fields at Piping Rock, dead flat land.  He was forced to use instead, the perimeter land, and he/they implemented their template holes as they saw fit.

They may have sought the land that best fit their holes, rather then the holes that best fit the land.


SPDB,

Don't forget the par 5 finishing holes at NGLA as well.

# 17 at Piping Rock has that truncated volcano shape, but it's anything but short.  Do you know what the original yardage for that hole was ?

[CHC1948]

SPDB,

Interesting observation!   SR and CBM seemed to prefer to end with a par-5, or maybe they liked to make sure there was no mental let up in the players coming home.  I have played two out of the four courses that you mentioned.  Yale really offers some good decision-making possibilities.  Yeaman's is a great match-play finishing hole.  How about the two other courses?
CHC

[SPDB]

Pat - of course not including NGLA was an oversight, it was the first one I thought of.

I don't know the original yardage of 17, but I do know from Tom Doak that, over his objection, the tee was moved back, and (i believe) green contours flattened a bit.

It is clearly (was) a short. Even today it is no more than an 8 iron, and can be as little as a wedge. I think the depth of the bunkers make the green appears more volcano-like than it actually is.

[A_Clay_Man]

I guess I was specifically thinking about the ravines on Shoreacres. Since, it is the only SR course I've seen.
 I just assumed they used the natural features everywhere.

[SPDB]

The creek is not much of a challenge (can be reached with as little as a 5 iron. But it does possess one of the more interesting greens on the course.

In each case I believe that CBM and SR wanted the player to have to navigate the final hole, so bunkers are jut in at interesting angles, or in the case of Yale - strange landforms.

At Piping, a bunker juts out perpendicularly into the drive zone. Another such bunker is positioned in the layup area short of the road.

[Jeff Goldman]

Pat,

From what little SR I've seen, I don't think he (they?) were merely contractors.  Consider the routing of Shoreacres - putting the short at the bottom of one of the ravines (and driving out of it the next tee), in face, the entire stretch from 10-15 (especially 11 and 15) is unique, and seems to indicate real care to use the land as he found it.  Incidently, the Redan is on the back nine (as is Mid-Ocean no?), and completely manufactured. (Adam, we crossed)

Jeff Goldman

[TEPaul]

"# 17 at Piping Rock has that truncated volcano shape, but it's anything but short.  Do you know what the original yardage for that hole was ?

I do because I grew up there--and that seems like about 90 years ago now! I don't remember the hole being more than about 150 but then. Around the time I was pulling out of Long Island they added another back tee that seemed like about 175. The thing was there always was quite a bit of room between #17 tee and #16 green on a perpindicular so they could probably add as much as they wanted there, unfortunately. When Dye/Doak came in there and redid the course or whatever I think they added too much yardage to some holes at Piping like #4. And I was walking around up there the other day and I saw a tee on #10 I sure don't remember. I also liked the way #8 used to be as a fairly short "road" hole. And I never liked all the yardage they added on #15 either but that was many decades ago now.

Oh what the hell, I don't really care if they add or added tee yardage as long as they don't get into doing something invasive on another hole to do it. I guess all that new yardage makes it more fun for these young studlies.

[SPDB]

Tom -
As fun as the old short Road hole used to be at #8, I don't think anybody can question that Rich Spear has made the hole better by putting that new tee in the field (and this was done in-house, not by Doak/Dye). That simple move made the Road Hole at PRC the most true to the original of any of the CBM/SR replicas. The angles of both the tee shot, and the resulting second are uncanny in their resemblance.

I agree that 15 is probably too long, as short hitters can get blocked off it they don't make the corner. But then again, maybe they shouldn't be playing from back there. It is a thrill, though playing as close as you can to the corner and executing on it.

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, SPDB, that tee out in the polo field on #8 was Pete Dye's idea, too.  We didn't actually BUILD a tee, but we did put the back markers back onto the polo field.

Pat, I suspect that Macdonald would have had a preference about where those famous holes fell in a round, but I'm certain he was not a slave to the pattern.  On his two other seminal works, the Biarritz is 13 and the Redan is 17 at Mid Ocean Club, and the Redan is 13 at Yale.

Pete Dye told me many years ago that he had a bit of a pattern to where the short holes fell in the round:  he liked the first one to be the 3rd or 4th hole, the second one to be the 7th or 8th, and he loved it when the two par-3's on the back were 13 and 17.  In other words, he didn't want one for the first two holes, and he liked them well spaced.

But, if he was "stuck" with property like Pacific Dunes, I would bet that Pete would have built back-to-back par-3's as I did ... but probably NOT four on the back nine!

[Jim Franklin]

Five Farms(BCC) ends with a 205 yard uphill par 3 that has a severely sloping green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mr Hurricane,

When I played BCC, Five Farms, # 17 was a par 3 and # 18 a short par 4.  I was unaware that they had redesigned and reversed the holes.


SPDB,

I would agree with you that the 8th at PRC is a better hole with the added length, not just with the more demanding approach shot to that huge green, but also on the demands on the drive as well.

# 17 played longer then an 8 iron when we played it this year, but I don't remember the yardage it played at.

Tom Doak,

I felt that the 10th and 11th holes were so different that they didn't seem like back to back par 3's, despite what the score card said.

[SPDB]

Pat - I only got out there once this summer, but have played it enough to know that it is 170-175 (at most) all downhill. Maybe I was being a bit liberal. It is, however, a "short" hole in the SR and CBM nomenclature. Kind of like Westhampton's 11th  

[Jeff Fortson]

I thought when CB Macdonald first designed NGLA that the nines were reversed.  Wouldn't that mean that #4 (Redan) was actually #13?

Just an observation.


Jeff F.

[Joel_Stewart]

Crystal Downs #9 is a great uphill par 3 ending at the clubhouse.  Wonderful way to end the front and take a breath of heaven.

I'm surprised no one mentioned that Pete Dye has usually ended the round with #16 being a par 5, #17 a par 3 and #18 a par 4.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Fortson,

TEPaul and I were discussing that, and it's my theory, that this may not have been CBM's long term intent, but an initial, temporary order of play borne of convenience.

Since the hotel burned down during construction of NGLA, and the 9th seems like such a bland finishing hole, with 10th, 11th and 12th as such hard starting holes, and with the 17th and 18th as such spectacular finishing holes, I have my doubts.

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