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Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Useful Golf Course Rankings
« on: November 09, 2020, 09:45:08 AM »
In the United States, the vast majority of top 100 courses are private. Very, very private, and very exclusive. Not many of those courses are hurting for members. So finding a spot on the top 100 does what? Gives them bragging rights? I'm not trying to be critical, but other than a debut course that gets instant credibility and buzz (Ohoopee comes to mind, as does Streamsong a few years ago), the list is really just an academic exercise and feels like a dick measuring contest.

A list of top public courses, on the other hand, actually influences play and revenue. Drilling down a little deeper, a best-in-state list could have a real impact on the success or failure of regional courses that the average guy can actually play.

And yet, the best-in-state lists that Golfweek has published are pretty crappy and have no writeups.

If golf journalism is actually journalism, with a goal of providing useful information to the public, shouldn't there be much more focus placed on objective rankings of public courses? And understanding that many people can't afford to travel across the country to play a top public course, wouldn't it make sense to really try to nail the best-in-state listings?

I know ultimately the goal is to sell magazines or get clicks, and maybe the people who compile such lists have realized the average joe likes to live vicariously and daydream of being a member of Cypress or Pine Valley. But honestly, I would much rather see an exhaustive listing from a panel of experts on courses in my area I can actually play.

Just a thought ...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2020, 09:51:56 AM »
Why not just go play the public courses in your area? I messed up and waited until this year to play The Brickyard. Wow, what a nice experience. I have only myself to blame.

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2020, 09:54:27 AM »
Dan,
     I find the GW  ratings to be pretty spot on whether it be casino, resort, private or public access. What state do you live in? Curious as to how GW has your state listed Re: playable courses. As an aside - don't we all dream of  a game at CPC, PV or ANGC? I'm in the upper Midwest and I always start to think about golf in March when CBS starts to advertise The Masters.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2020, 10:21:29 AM »
I'm not sure who is behind the Top 100 Golf Courses site, but upon looking at some of their state course rankings they seem fairly in-line with more known and cited publications.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/?utm_source=tmsponsorship&utm_medium=masthead


What's interesting about their format is the consortium of raters they have, which takes into account opinions from club pros, club champions and registered members. Because courses are being reviewed on an "as played" basis, a course that is in the Top 5 one week could drop the next. Thus, nothing is static.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/ranking-rating


This site even goes so far as to rate the Top 100 architects of all time, which I found fascinating. Not sure how many of those here are familiar with this site, but for those that are I'd be curious to hear your opinions. It seems legit, from what I can tell.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2020, 10:22:50 AM »
I'm racking my brain here trying to think of a public course that I played because of the rankings. I don't think Rustic, Streamsong or Bandon would go on that list as I mainly played those out of spite. So far Cascata in Vegas is the best I can come up with. Hated it.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2020, 10:32:07 AM »
They are all useful, they just have different purposes and different readers.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2020, 10:35:11 AM »
I'm racking my brain here trying to think of a public course that I played because of the rankings. I don't think Rustic, Streamsong or Bandon would go on that list as I mainly played those out of spite. So far Cascata in Vegas is the best I can come up with. Hated it.
Make the journey to Wisconsin and play Lawsonia. The public version of NGLA or Chicago Golf. If they had large grounds budget the difference would be negligible.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 10:44:17 AM »
I'm not sure who is behind the Top 100 Golf Courses site, but upon looking at some of their state course rankings they seem fairly in-line with more known and cited publications.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/?utm_source=tmsponsorship&utm_medium=masthead


What's interesting about their format is the consortium of raters they have, which takes into account opinions from club pros, club champions and registered members. Because courses are being reviewed on an "as played" basis, a course that is in the Top 5 one week could drop the next. Thus, nothing is static.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/ranking-rating


This site even goes so far as to rate the Top 100 architects of all time, which I found fascinating. Not sure how many of those here are familiar with this site, but for those that are I'd be curious to hear your opinions. It seems legit, from what I can tell.


I have found that if you triangulate Top 100, Golfweek, and Golf Magazine, you can get a pretty accurate perspective on courses. Golf Digest Places You Can Play less useful but can be worth adding to mix.


Ira

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2020, 10:44:41 AM »
I did play Lawsonia purely out of spite. I live on a L&M course that is an exact replica so I wasn't impressed. Plus they tried to proselytize me which pissed me off.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2020, 11:12:03 AM »

The purpose of Top 100 lists is simply to identify the Top 100.  Plain and simple.  Some people are interested in the answer to the question "what are the best".  Do you think resorts and public courses are under-rated based on that simple criteria?  Having had the opportunity to play just about every course that has ever been included on a world or USA Top 100 list I do NOT think they are underrepresented.  My honest guess is that the magazines publish what they do because they have concluded that these lists draw the most eyeballs.  The reality is publishing the best courses anyone can play (with sufficient cash) would generate much more advertising $$ for the magazines, as private clubs almost never advertise...resorts and daily fee courses certainly do so.


Regarding top100golfcourses.com, it is headquartered in England but has raters etc worldwide.




cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 05:55:39 PM »
What's the difference? I've played them all, some are way over rated others are under-rated, who cares?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2020, 07:21:43 PM »
I think the Golfweek "Best You Can Play: state by state" is a good list, but by no means perfect. For example, CommonGround is on the Colorado list, but Riverdale Dunes is not. I would probably split those courses 50/50 between plays. Anyway, it's a good starting point.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2020, 07:41:03 PM »
I'm not sure who is behind the Top 100 Golf Courses site, but upon looking at some of their state course rankings they seem fairly in-line with more known and cited publications.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/?utm_source=tmsponsorship&utm_medium=masthead


What's interesting about their format is the consortium of raters they have, which takes into account opinions from club pros, club champions and registered members. Because courses are being reviewed on an "as played" basis, a course that is in the Top 5 one week could drop the next. Thus, nothing is static.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/ranking-rating


This site even goes so far as to rate the Top 100 architects of all time, which I found fascinating. Not sure how many of those here are familiar with this site, but for those that are I'd be curious to hear your opinions. It seems legit, from what I can tell.


Mike


For full disclosure, I'm associated with that website.


It's administered by Keith Baxter, an Englishman who has been collating rankings for a while now. I've known Keith for a long time and he Jim McCann is an associate of Keith is a regular poster on here as well. As far as I am aware, Keith seeks opinions from travelled golfers plus takes into account Golf Magazine, Golf Digest and Golfweek rankings for his US listings.


Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2020, 07:48:47 PM »
My one complaint with the top 100 website is the amount of hidden gems some of the lists are lacking. There used to be a link to submit courses but I am not sure if that worked or not.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2020, 08:33:54 PM »
Mike


For full disclosure, I'm associated with that website.


It's administered by Keith Baxter, an Englishman who has been collating rankings for a while now. I've known Keith for a long time and he Jim McCann is an associate of Keith is a regular poster on here as well. As far as I am aware, Keith seeks opinions from travelled golfers plus takes into account Golf Magazine, Golf Digest and Golfweek rankings for his US listings.
Kevin, thanks for chiming in and posting, as this is good information to know. I'm curious if the panelists from the aforementioned publications who post here on occasion dismiss the Top 100 Golf Course site it as being second rate or if they view it as a credible resource? I'd never heard of it until about a year or so ago and questioned it's authenticity, but I'm glad to learn there are those here that can testify to its legitimacy. To me it's another resource that golfers of all manner and ilk can utilize to their benefit and enjoyment.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2020, 02:19:40 AM »
Mike


For full disclosure, I'm associated with that website.


It's administered by Keith Baxter, an Englishman who has been collating rankings for a while now. I've known Keith for a long time and he Jim McCann is an associate of Keith is a regular poster on here as well. As far as I am aware, Keith seeks opinions from travelled golfers plus takes into account Golf Magazine, Golf Digest and Golfweek rankings for his US listings.
Kevin, thanks for chiming in and posting, as this is good information to know. I'm curious if the panelists from the aforementioned publications who post here on occasion dismiss the Top 100 Golf Course site it as being second rate or if they view it as a credible resource? I'd never heard of it until about a year or so ago and questioned it's authenticity, but I'm glad to learn there are those here that can testify to its legitimacy. To me it's another resource that golfers of all manner and ilk can utilize to their benefit and enjoyment.

The Top 100 ranking has been around for a while, must be at least 20 years. It was originally GB&I focused then slowly spread to include everywhere. It started as a list which used other lists to then create a top 100 based on the correlated info. I think as it grew and started to dial down deeper beyond top 100 it needed some boots on the ground so to speak.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2020, 01:57:13 PM »
This site wouldn’t exist or at least would have much less to talk about if we weren’t constantly comparing/critiquing/ranking things. 


Over the years there had been talk here about a GCAtlas Top 100 list (public or private or combination) but the site would never be able to agree on the criteria and let alone the make-up/listing of the courses.  In fact I would bet we wouldn’t even be able to reach agreement on the Top 10 (even in alphabetical order)  ;D


The lists are the lists.  It is what humans do - rank things  :)


Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2020, 02:08:45 PM »

Mark,


This GCA list from 2009 is quite good in my opinion.  I'd certainly like to see a new version.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html



This site wouldn’t exist or at least would have much less to talk about if we weren’t constantly comparing/critiquing/ranking things. 


Over the years there had been talk here about a GCAtlas Top 100 list (public or private or combination) but the site would never be able to agree on the criteria and let alone the make-up/listing of the courses.  In fact I would bet we wouldn’t even be able to reach agreement on the Top 10 (even in alphabetical order)  ;D


The lists are the lists.  It is what humans do - rank things  :)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2020, 04:51:46 PM »
Brent,
I recall that effort.  I think it lead to lots of "discussion" which is a main goal of these lists but zero consensus  ;)   It is just another list. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2020, 07:13:43 PM »

Mark,

This GCA list from 2009 is quite good in my opinion.  I'd certainly like to see a new version.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html


This site wouldn’t exist or at least would have much less to talk about if we weren’t constantly comparing/critiquing/ranking things. 

Over the years there had been talk here about a GCAtlas Top 100 list (public or private or combination) but the site would never be able to agree on the criteria and let alone the make-up/listing of the courses.  In fact I would bet we wouldn’t even be able to reach agreement on the Top 10 (even in alphabetical order)  ;D

The lists are the lists.  It is what humans do - rank things  :)


Brent


I agree with you. There was a GCAer who was going to go thru the process of updating the list, but it fell through.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Useful Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2020, 06:29:49 AM »
Mike


For full disclosure, I'm associated with that website.


It's administered by Keith Baxter, an Englishman who has been collating rankings for a while now. I've known Keith for a long time and he Jim McCann is an associate of Keith is a regular poster on here as well. As far as I am aware, Keith seeks opinions from travelled golfers plus takes into account Golf Magazine, Golf Digest and Golfweek rankings for his US listings.
Kevin, thanks for chiming in and posting, as this is good information to know. I'm curious if the panelists from the aforementioned publications who post here on occasion dismiss the Top 100 Golf Course site it as being second rate or if they view it as a credible resource? I'd never heard of it until about a year or so ago and questioned it's authenticity, but I'm glad to learn there are those here that can testify to its legitimacy. To me it's another resource that golfers of all manner and ilk can utilize to their benefit and enjoyment.


Mike


Keith has been in contact with me to clarify that the US rankings are sourced from opinions of travelled golfers these days but that  courses from golfing publications are considered. Of course I'm biased but I find it a great resource to do golf trip planning especially re: Architects and now Championships.