GCA’s who retired early or changed profession

[Ally Mcintosh]

GCA is a job / profession / craft that many continue well in to their retirement once they still have the work and mojo.... most don’t cash-out and just take their pension.


But which architects have stopped early, whether it is because they lost interest or because they just weren’t earning enough money to keep them going?


I think of our own Brian Phillips, seemingly busy through the noughties but moving out of GCA quite abruptly to go back in to the world of engineering. I have never talked to him about his reasons but wonder which other well known names have changed away?

[Mark_Fine]

I have been doing this for almost 20 years and there are many that have decided to move on or retire.  Jeff can probably share many names from the ASGCA if he wants to.  I am just happy to be very busy.  You need to have a niche to survive unless you are a celebrity. 

[Rob Marshall]

I have been doing this for almost 20 years and there are many that have decided to move on or retire.  Jeff can probably share many names from the ASGCA if he wants to.  I am just happy to be very busy.  You need to niche to survive unless you are a celebrity.

Mark, just looked at your website. I noticed you did some work for Transit Valley with Scott Witter. Scott did a master plan for my club many years ago. I heard he left the business.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The ones I know who moved away (a few quite young) tend to find other obsessions.


I never see them talking about golf courses anymore.

[Adam Lawrence]

Line Mortensen is a jewellery designer these days

[Jeff_Brauer]

My father always thought that people in general should think about a second career about 45-50, just to keep life interesting.  (Luckily, he didn't feel the same way about Mom.....)  In the back of my mind I considered change into a related field, but never did, basically, because I'm unemployable after 36 years as my own boss.


I think Ally's question might have been directed at more modern versions of Geo Thomas who wanted to grow roses?  I can't think of too many in that category, but will reach back in the memory banks later, if I can. 


I know lots of guys who at the very least, started in other ventures to pay the bills when gca wasn't providing much revenues back in the early oughts.  Jerry Lemons with his Better Billy Bunker is one example.  Another started a solar panel company, but still had the time to work as a gca.  He could probably chime in, since he participates here.


Many of those architects kept that private, so they could still say they were gca's, despite making most money from (real life example) stocking shelves at Home Depot.  I'll go through the ASGCA list and give it some more thought.

[Duncan Cheslett]

What’s Ian Scott-Taylor up to these days?


😉

[Mark_Fine]

Rob,
I worked with Scott for many years and we did a lot of projects together but sadly he had to leave the business.  Just not enough work for him.  I did my best to keep him busy but I also work with others (Forrest Richardson and I do a lot together).  I don’t update my website anymore (actually been years).  Too many people (other architects) would go to my site, find out where I was working and see if they can get some work or put in a competitive bid.  Can’t blame them as you need to feed the family but I just decided to not talk about my projects.  This business is all word of mouth anyway. 

[Craig Van Egmond]

There was a young Australian fella that played at some GCA events back in the old days who worked for Tom Lehman for a while. I found out later he left the business. I can't recall his name.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, since it's a Friday afternoon, and I was probably going to waste half my time anyway.....


I checked the all time ASGCA list, and I talked with Ron Whitten. 


A lot of guys slowed down, but very few principals just quit.  They either retired or ran into health problems, same as any other profession.  If they had several courses under their belt, they kept the shingle up.  Now, since the 1980's, there were many associates, picked up by firms in the 1980's and 90's, who got laid off, went on their own, managed to snag 1-3 design contracts in the boom years, and then faded away from view (in golf, anyway)


If trained as landscape architects, transferring to engineering, architecture, land planning, or landscape architecture firms has been pretty common, as has becoming park district landscape architects and park planners.


Of course, the snarky answer is "Tour Pros."  Only a few founded their own ongoing businesses. Others would get a consulting or appearance fee contract, working with a guy like me, and got letterhead and maybe even an office, but work rarely rolled in, and when the lease was up, got right back out of the business.  Or, they were early adopters of the home office mentality.

[Joel_Stewart]

Jim Engh seems to have quietly left the industry.  His web site hasn't been updated in a few years. 


There's quite a few in California that haven't been able to get work, mainly because of the economy.

[Mike_Young]

You have to be holistic in the golf design business unless you. are a signature.  I know a few that whose wives have good jobs and they just "pretend" to be in the business.  It's not all glamour.  I do think the average archie has learned not to talk about where he is working.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jim Engh seems to have quietly left the industry.  His web site hasn't been updated in a few years. 


There's quite a few in California that haven't been able to get work, mainly because of the economy.

https://www.inforum.com/sports/golf/6575004-McFeely-blog-So-thats-what-happened-to-famed-N.D.-golf-course-architect-Jim-Engh

[Joel_Stewart]

Thats an interesting article Tony.  His "extremely engineered style" is well summed up that it went out of style.  I find it interesting he didn't adapt or attempt to adapt.


He made enough money from Dave Liniger at Remax and a couple of other courses that he doesn't have to worry.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim and I had dinner and drinks at a Lake Couer D' Alene restaurant not far from his office a number of years back.

He's a very engaging guy with some terrific war stories, but he felt the criticism of his holes being templated was unfair in light of many minimal/naturalistic courses looking the same with similar type bunkering, undulating greens, etc.  I wasn't sure what to make of it at the time, but given it was 2010-11ish, I'm guessing he was right in the middle of his dry spell and probably got a lot of feedback like that.

I think its a shame he's not still going, I've had a blast playing each of the 4 I've sampled.

P.S.  His website mentions relatively low cost builds, but I most of those were built 20 or so years ago. https://www.enghgolf.com/costefficient

[Mark_Fine]

Is Kelly Blake Moran still in the business?  Like Mike said, I think many architects just don't talk about their projects (for good reason).  I know lots of the "signature" architects try to keep their teams busy when they can't do original work by going after renovations and restorations.  It is another example why not to talk about where you are working.  I know Forrest and I did a Master Plan for the Griffith Park courses (we didn't talk too much about it or it would have attracted a lot of attention).  Some work was done before the Special Olympics were held there.  I will leave it at that. 

[Joe Hancock]

Strategically, the worst thing I can do to stay busy is to give the impression that I’m not busy. Success breeds success. I appreciate each and every one else in the biz that wants to stay quiet about how busy they are.

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
I don’t know what it is like where you are but word gets around at least in this area.  Course owners talk. Supers talk.  Contractors talk.  I don’t think Mike or I meant to say that architects don’t want people to think they aren’t busy.  They just don’t go around self promoting it maybe as much as they used to when there was a ton of opportunities out there.  No need for debate on this one.  We all do what we think is best for our situations.  Covid has helped some courses that I have worked with as memberships have swelled and projects that were delayed are being started.  We started one this week as the club has gained 50-60 new members this year 

[Ben Stephens]

Ally




Aren't you and I diversifying our work with other jobs/occupations as well. I know one or two who are also doing similar.


Its the sign of the times there is less demand for golf course architects and increase in numbers of in house work which does not require golf course architects




Cheers
Ben

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ben,


I’m not diversifying. I have my base engineering/construction work and I balance it with GCA work. As I get more financially secure, I hope to drop the former and take the risk on full-time latter.... But who knows.


Right now I’m lucky enough to not have to chase GCA work that I don’t want in order to pay the bills.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,


I’m not diversifying. I have my base engineering/construction work and I balance it with GCA work. As I get more financially secure, I hope to drop the former and take the risk on full-time latter.... But who knows.


Right now I’m lucky enough to not have to chase GCA work that I don’t want in order to pay the bills.

Ally


Isn't that comment a bit confusing - you have two different occupations? surely that is defined as diversifying what you offer work wise or occupation wise.


It is advantageous to have two or more as one can be busier than the other. I rely more on my architecture work than golf course design for income.


Cheers
Ben
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[Ally Mcintosh]

Ben,


I haven’t diversified to supplement my GCA income which was what your post implied. I’m slowly moving in to GCA rather than away from it. There’s a big difference in the context of this thread.


Ally

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,


I haven’t diversified to supplement my GCA income which was what your post implied. I’m slowly moving in to GCA rather than away from it. There’s a big difference in the context of this thread.


Ally

Ally


I referred to 'work' in general with other occupations which can be misinterpreted - maybe it should have been 'working' in a number of different occupations at the same time whether one is more busy or quieter than the other.


Cheers
Ben

[Tom_Doak]

Even I fall back to writing and restoration work when new course work is slow, just as I did when I was starting out.


Mike Young has said before (and I agree) that only in two boom periods has golf course design really been a full time occupation for very many people, and those two each lasted no more than 20 years.  The number of people who started in golf design out of school and made their living at it until retirement has got to be pretty small.

[Tom_Doak]

There was a young Australian fella that played at some GCA events back in the old days who worked for Tom Lehman for a while. I found out later he left the business. I can't recall his name.

I think you are thinking of Josh Taylor, who came to the Archipalooza event in Bandon twenty years ago.  I heard from him a couple of months ago, offering to send a bunch of my collected writings for use on my new web site.  He is living in Minneapolis, doing well.