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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2020, 11:40:47 PM »
So courses that the best in the world can barely finish are suddenly cool if the architect knows your name. Is Doak doing Hanse like cameos during the broadcast apologizing for this mess?


They can barely finish?  My consultant had 65 today and there were a lot of scores under 70, but they did have to work for it, and they will again tomorrow.  The rough is not "hack it out" US Open rough, but the players have to be careful of what will happen if their shot runs over and out.


There will be a 64 from somebody in the last five groups tomorrow, and I'd bet on a couple of 74's, too.  Hopefully you can get that bug out of your butt and enjoy it.


Speaking of barely finish. Hello Phil!!!


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/phil-mickelson-just-recorded-the-worst-score-of-his-career-on-a-par-3?utm_medium=email&utm_source=110720&utm_campaign=golfworld

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2020, 02:01:42 AM »
Tough to get a sense of the course on TV because it’s so flat. Except around some of the greens.
Agreed! The course seems pancake flat except for around the edges of the fairways and greens. The fairways seem generous enough.  However, if you miss them balls tend to fall off and go down into ditches. I can't recall seeing so many players with awkward lies playing out of the rough, making approach shots even harder keep on the hard, undulating greens there. I guess it's about all you can do without introducing a ton of bunkers or hazards to help the course defend itself.


Mike,


As a resident of Houston, I played the old Memorial Park. That course was pancake flat, but after walking the course today I wouldn’t suggest the new version is. There is now quite a bit of movement in the fairways and some of the areas now exposed due to tree removal also present a more varied topography.


Most of us on this site have heard television distorts and obscures topography. Augusta is a well known example. I am not saying  Memorial is Augusta, but the same principle applies. If seeing it on television makes Memorial appear pancake, that is simply due to the limitations of the television camera, IMO.


Memorial does now have a number of raised greens. I don’t recall much of that before, if any, beyond minimal amounts. I didn’t count; but many of the greens today are raised and are obviously so (rather than being a natural green on a hill which didn’t exist at Memorial).


So, while the raised greens do look like an architect built them rather than being natural (similar in that sense to Tillinghast at, say, Winged Foot), IMO, the fairways very naturally tie into the surroundings. The tree removal also creates a much larger sense of scale, a feature that really stood out for me.


Building a course that average local players could enjoy while also being capable of holding a professional tournament was the charge for Tom Doak and his team. It certainly appears to me Tom and his guys succeeded.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2020, 07:28:28 AM »
The Golf Channel is running a new commercial for the tournament this morning. I really like the ground shot of the barranca with the meandering stream. Nice to see them put the drone away.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2020, 10:11:35 AM »
As a resident of Houston, I played the old Memorial Park. That course was pancake flat, but after walking the course today I wouldn’t suggest the new version is. There is now quite a bit of movement in the fairways and some of the areas now exposed due to tree removal also present a more varied topography.


Most of us on this site have heard television distorts and obscures topography. Augusta is a well known example. I am not saying  Memorial is Augusta, but the same principle applies. If seeing it on television makes Memorial appear pancake, that is simply due to the limitations of the television camera, IMO.


Memorial does now have a number of raised greens. I don’t recall much of that before, if any, beyond minimal amounts. I didn’t count; but many of the greens today are raised and are obviously so (rather than being a natural green on a hill which didn’t exist at Memorial).


So, while the raised greens do look like an architect built them rather than being natural (similar in that sense to Tillinghast at, say, Winged Foot), IMO, the fairways very naturally tie into the surroundings. The tree removal also creates a much larger sense of scale, a feature that really stood out for me.


Building a course that average local players could enjoy while also being capable of holding a professional tournament was the charge for Tom Doak and his team. It certainly appears to me Tom and his guys succeeded.
Thanks for your comments, Tim! I appreciate your take and perspective having walked the course. I personally love the raised or pushed up greens. Take your pick. I grew up playing courses in Michigan with a number of those. If you miss on the wrong side of the hole, the falloff areas were penal and made for an extremely difficult up and down. When Peter made a comparison to Augusta National earlier, I thought much the same about the way the greens play. While they're not the same scale as ANGC's, their penalty as to the shots required around them to save par is very similar - making it a great tune-up for the pros not taking the week off ahead of the Master's. I'm not sure if this where the tournament falls on the PGA Tour calendar going forward, but I would love to see it be the annual tune-up tournament for the Master's. I suspect some of the pros would too.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2020, 11:30:25 AM »
The one player I wish would have played this week is... BDC. 

It would have been interesting to see how he approached this course strategically,  bomb and gouge or something else and if he's as good a chipper and putter as everyone thinks he is with so much touched needed around these greens.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2020, 11:39:04 AM »
We have officially lost the distance wars. Missing BDC is pure idiocy.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2020, 02:38:13 PM »
I’m mind boggled they spent 34 million renovating a municipal course.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2020, 02:54:38 PM »
Limited to Tour Courses: Quail Hollow+Sedgefield+TPC Sawgrass.


Ira

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2020, 02:59:08 PM »
I’m mind boggled they spent 34 million renovating a municipal course.


Nice drive-by hit, Rob, but it's fake news. Turns out they've spent 18 so far, which is a lot, but they also did a lot of stuff. This is a little bit more of a project than just a golf course renovation. Multiple commercial structures, heavy infrastructure work, etc.


"The project is being funded by the nonprofit Astros Golf Foundation. The first phase cost $18.5 million, according to a Nov. 4 press release from the city. That phase included the golf course, redesigned by Tom Doak; a new maintenance facility; a new storm water irrigation system; a practice facility with a two-level, 84-bay hitting structure; a First Tee complex with a four-hole course; and additional parking. Don Mahaffey, president of Greenscape Methods, oversaw construction."

Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2020, 03:09:47 PM »
thruple
a Los Angeles course with barancas
The Loop Red/Black
Pinehurst




Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2020, 03:19:57 PM »
I’m mind boggled they spent 34 million renovating a municipal course.


Nice drive-by hit, Rob, but it's fake news. Turns out they've spent 18 so far, which is a lot, but they also did a lot of stuff. This is a little bit more of a project than just a golf course renovation. Multiple commercial structures, heavy infrastructure work, etc.


"The project is being funded by the nonprofit Astros Golf Foundation. The first phase cost $18.5 million, according to a Nov. 4 press release from the city. That phase included the golf course, redesigned by Tom Doak; a new maintenance facility; a new storm water irrigation system; a practice facility with a two-level, 84-bay hitting structure; a First Tee complex with a four-hole course; and additional parking. Don Mahaffey, president of Greenscape Methods, oversaw construction."

Drive by hit? I guess the PGA Tour doesn’t know what they are talking about.

 [size=78%]https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201019005161/en/PGA-TOUR-Astros-Golf-Foundation-partner-with-Vivint-to-sponsor-the-Vivint-Houston-Open-in-2020[/size]
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 03:23:23 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2020, 03:53:44 PM »
Point being, to do what they needed to do to the course itself including some rather elaborate infrastructure projects the tally was 18 mill.


Phase II was the clubhouse facilities, and anything to do with clubhouses costs at least a billion dollars as a rule of thumb.


https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2019/11/04/memorial-park-golf-course-reopens-after-first.html



Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2020, 04:39:02 PM »
thruple
a Los Angeles course with barancas
The Loop Red/Black
Pinehurst


Pete,


I wouldn't call the drainage ditches at Memorial Park barrancas, first time I ever heard that terms was in California, i.e., at Rustic Canyon for the ravines... np comparison in my mind.
 
Unfortunately the TV coverage (that I saw) didn't really show off the subtle ground features that are there, especially on the front 9.., but I can go with some Loop (y) features


And the sand cap does give some pinehurst feel, but there's no curving sloped fairways...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2020, 05:10:03 PM »
The term barranca has 17th century Spanish origin. As much at home in Texas as California.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2020, 05:23:59 PM »
Point being, to do what they needed to do to the course itself including some rather elaborate infrastructure projects the tally was 18 mill.


Phase II was the clubhouse facilities, and anything to do with clubhouses costs at least a billion dollars as a rule of thumb.


https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2019/11/04/memorial-park-golf-course-reopens-after-first.html


Billion dollar clubhouse?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2020, 05:41:34 PM »
Point being, to do what they needed to do to the course itself including some rather elaborate infrastructure projects the tally was 18 mill.


Phase II was the clubhouse facilities, and anything to do with clubhouses costs at least a billion dollars as a rule of thumb.


https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2019/11/04/memorial-park-golf-course-reopens-after-first.html


Billion dollar clubhouse?


I would ask anyone to name a project where the cost of the clubhouse alone was a billion dollars.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2020, 06:13:21 PM »
The term barranca has 17th century Spanish origin. As much at home in Texas as California.


maybe so JK, but you apparently don't know about Texan vernacular, i.e., use of soft H's and hard J's ..  Remember the Alamo! 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2020, 06:34:42 PM »
Point being, to do what they needed to do to the course itself including some rather elaborate infrastructure projects the tally was 18 mill.


Phase II was the clubhouse facilities, and anything to do with clubhouses costs at least a billion dollars as a rule of thumb.


https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2019/11/04/memorial-park-golf-course-reopens-after-first.html


Billion dollar clubhouse?


I would ask anyone to name a project where the cost of the clubhouse alone was a billion dollars.


I was exaggerating for effect. Swing and a miss I guess.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2020, 06:48:36 PM »
I’m mind boggled they spent 34 million renovating a municipal course.


We didn't.  The reconstruction of the golf course was around $10m including a lot of sand capping.  The higher numbers have to do with moving tennis courts at a King's ransom to make the practice range 400 yards with a second deck on it, and other concessions to the city and Memorial Park Conservancy.  Kudos to Jim Crane for dealing with all of that and letting the city have it all for free - a lesser man might have told them to shove it somewhere along the way.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2020, 06:58:17 PM »
The term barranca has 17th century Spanish origin. As much at home in Texas as California.


maybe so JK, but you apparently don't know about Texan vernacular, i.e., use of soft H's and hard J's ..  Remember the Alamo!


After watching Bill Paxton play Sam Houston I'm trying to forget the Alamo.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2020, 06:13:51 AM »
Doesn't someone always get the raw deal in a thruple? Why would you wish for that on one of the courses that you mention? Too many tears, too many hurt feelings, eyes cast to the ground when you pass each other. Far from the knowing ...


I say too much.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!