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John Kavanaugh

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If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« on: November 06, 2020, 08:49:40 AM »
I can't get the picture out of my mind of a combination of Torrey Pines and Cog Hill with the once newly restored bunkers at Riviera thrown in to bring back the magic.

Kalen Braley

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Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2020, 11:06:08 AM »
Interesting question John,

I wasn't seeing any of those, but I was seeing a bit of Pinehurst #2 with the semi-crowned greens and devious pin locations on holes like 9 and 18...



Peter Pallotta

Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2020, 02:41:00 PM »
I think it’s like Colonial + Bethpage + The Old Course, getting ready for a coming out party at Augusta by having some drinks at Seminole.

Kevin Stark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2020, 05:00:26 PM »
I see a lot of Old Mac in the greens, at least from my view from my couch. Huge surfaces, big slopes, and short grass around them.

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2020, 05:25:05 PM »
I can't get the picture out of my mind of a combination of Torrey Pines and Cog Hill with the once newly restored bunkers at Riviera thrown in to bring back the magic.


You're an anarchist John!
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2020, 08:17:27 PM »
I can't get the picture out of my mind of a combination of Torrey Pines and Cog Hill with the once newly restored bunkers at Riviera thrown in to bring back the magic.


You're an anarchist John!


I'm just looking for a little consistency in our critiques. Rees Jones called wanting his abomination back and no one answered the phone.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2020, 08:47:59 PM »
Not sure there is anything worse than watching guys pitch out of long Bermuda rough. I guess the only thing worse would be watching a guy from the northeast like me pitch out of it. Huge advantage to guys who grew up playing out of it.


 Greens look like fun. The course reminds me of watching the Hawaiian open. Tough to get a sense of the course on TV because it’s so flat. Except around some of the greens.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2020, 07:30:36 AM »
Tough to get a sense of the course on TV because it’s so flat. Except around some of the greens.
Agreed! The course seems pancake flat except for around the edges of the fairways and greens. The fairways seem generous enough.  However, if you miss them balls tend to fall off and go down into ditches. I can't recall seeing so many players with awkward lies playing out of the rough, making approach shots even harder keep on the hard, undulating greens there. I guess it's about all you can do without introducing a ton of bunkers or hazards to help the course defend itself.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2020, 08:03:42 AM »
The course seems pancake flat except for around the edges of the fairways and greens. The fairways seem generous enough.  However, if you miss them balls tend to fall off and go down into ditches. I can't recall seeing so many players with awkward lies playing out of the rough, making approach shots even harder keep on the hard, undulating greens there.


This is the only good description I have seen here so far.  It was pancake flat to start (less than ten feet from high to low unless you count the bottom of the ravines, which were not in play before).  But in the end it's prettier than I expected due to the subtle ground movement created, which shows up much better on the ground than from cameras higher up.  Fallaway greens like 14 and 18 are tough for the pros because you can't see the back half of them from the fairway - they would have worked better visually on slightly downhill terrain, but we had none of that here.


I am super pleased with the setup and the conditioning, with big credit to the super Jason Harsh, and to Don Mahaffey's team for their assistance.  You can advance the ball out of the rough but it's very difficult to control - a couple of the younger players who came to dinner last night said if they see their ball in the rough, they are just trying to figure out how to make par and not have the bsll get away from them.  And even if you're in the fairway, you've got to be careful what side of the hole you go.  Fairways matter, and angles matter.  Most players are still learning the course so I would expect some cries of unfairness:  Dustin Johnson was pretty rough in his assessment Tuesday, but I doubt he is as harsh after 66 Friday.


I spent about 15 minutes with Brooks Koepka Wednesday and he just loves how it turned out; meanwhile Jim Crane who raised all the money and was concerned it would be too easy, is also very pleased with the result and what the players are saying.  Besides myself, those were the two guys I wanted to please, and I think both are tough critics.  I'm less concerned what grouchy JK has to say watching from his couch, but I think Rees Jones would hate the course and I assure you it's nothing like his work.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2020, 08:42:00 AM »
TD, I am thoroughly enjoying this weeks tournament and the course setup. You and those who helped make Memorial Park what it is are to be commended! I find it interesting that more players aren't putting from the hollows around some of the greens, as some are having a hard time getting chip shots anywhere near the cup. Heck, I've seen a number of chip and pitch shots not stay on the greens. The ground game is a lost art form with today's pros, but courses like this show its value and importance to scoring if practiced. I'll definitely check Memorial Park out next I'm in Houston - provided I can get on it, as I suspect it will be one of the busiest, if not THE busiest public golf course in the area given all the pre-tournament and tournament publicity. I can't wait to see what some of the pins will be this weekend and how the pros take them on. Enjoy the rest of your time at the tournament and I hope this is the beginning of a lasting partnership between the PGA Tour and Memorial Park.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2020, 11:28:44 AM »
Tom,


Why would Reed hate the work and/or how does it differ from what he did at Torrey Pines?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2020, 11:42:01 AM »
Tom,

I've wondered why there has been so little commentary on GCA.  After watching 3-4 hours of coverage, the course looks terrific!

Plenty of width off the tee, yet requires very precise approaches, especially with some of the pins being tucked in small little sections of the green.  Its almost like the pros can't resist firing at them, instead of taking the safer play and ending up with doubles.  The greens also look elastic enough where they can put pins in the middle of them for everyday play so weekend joe doesn't get beat up.

Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised with how the course looks and plays so far!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2020, 12:15:58 PM »
So courses that the best in the world can barely finish are suddenly cool if the architect knows your name. Is Doak doing Hanse like cameos during the broadcast apologizing for this mess?

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2020, 12:43:27 PM »
 8)  JK,


I suspect Rees Jones was hoping for TD's failure at MP, as he designed the Golf Club of Houston's Tournament Course (w/David Toms) where the Houston PGA stop has been for a while since graduating from the member's course there (old Eldorado layout updated by Jacobsen/Hardy) after leaving The Woodlands.  I haven't heard anyone longing for a return to the GCH yet...  a long long walk.


You've been a bit bothered lately, need a walk in the park?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2020, 12:53:45 PM »
I’m sitting a bench at a course where I played my first round of golf in 1968. Enjoying a cigar and a Bloody Mary thinking about the man I loved whose name is right below the inscription “A Gentleman and a Friend”. So yea, I’m a touch melancholy. Even so if given the choice between Harding or Memorial Parks. It’s Harding 10 - Memorial 0.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2020, 01:30:53 PM »
This Houston Open is the most interesting golf played in the USA I’ve seen shown on TV so far this year. And probably by a significant margin.
Love the ‘temptation’ factor and the consequences, either positive or negative, good or bad, if temptation can’t be appropriately handled.


Atb

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2020, 03:08:49 PM »
 8) 
 8) JK, I have no idea where you're at,... but surprised you didn't give Lincoln Park at least one play out of 10?  Much better views than Harding or Memorial,  as I remember from late 70's...


It looks like I can play Memorial Park 5-6 times for once at Harding Park...  so enjoy your 10 plays and I suspect the grill. 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2020, 03:25:17 PM »
I had not considered the cost to play each course. If I ever get to Houston again I doubt that I will leave the course commonly known as Wolf Point. But then again, I can't see leaving Cal Club or Olympic when in SF.  I'm sure I'll never play either course.


Very few opinions on this site have ever been about playing a course. I did a quick word search and Torrey Pines is the most hated least played course mentioned on GCA. Memorial may be in good company.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2020, 03:49:29 PM »
 8)  Yep, can't wait for the US Open to come to town... somewhere other than Champions.


... and watch the scale on the TX maps, that middle finger between Houston and Wolf Point is like 115 miles...



Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2020, 07:25:34 PM »
So courses that the best in the world can barely finish are suddenly cool if the architect knows your name. Is Doak doing Hanse like cameos during the broadcast apologizing for this mess?


They can barely finish?  My consultant had 65 today and there were a lot of scores under 70, but they did have to work for it, and they will again tomorrow.  The rough is not "hack it out" US Open rough, but the players have to be careful of what will happen if their shot runs over and out.


There will be a 64 from somebody in the last five groups tomorrow, and I'd bet on a couple of 74's, too.  Hopefully you can get that bug out of your butt and enjoy it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2020, 07:33:26 PM »
I plan on watching from 4pm until the Steelers kick off at 4:25. Eastern Time. I hope it goes well.


Do you not mention your consultant’s name in case he feverishly googles his name late at night?  Doesn’t seem like him.

Peter Pallotta

Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2020, 07:37:22 PM »
You should be feeling good, T. One of the pros said something like: ’the penalty for missing on the wrong side [of the fairway] is big because the ball just rolls away [on the green] — and you don’t see that on Tour courses much and I think it’s great’. Hence my reference to Augusta, and my previous sleeper hit idea. It doesn’t look like much but it plays like a lot! And it answers the question we’ve asked a thousand times here, ie how do you make angles (and tee shot placement) count these days when they hit it so far?

« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 07:42:23 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2020, 08:12:40 PM »
I plan on watching from 4pm until the Steelers kick off at 4:25. Eastern Time. I hope it goes well.


Do you not mention your consultant’s name in case he feverishly googles his name late at night?  Doesn’t seem like him.


No, I just dislike name-dropping or making anyone think we are great friends or anything, but I was happy to see Brooks played much better today, rounding into form for a major as he so often does.  He has been very generous this week talking up the course when I'm sure he would really rather just focus on next week.


If I wanted to name drop I would recount the dinner conversation from last night between a HoF baseball player and a 23-year-old golfer, where the baseballer reminsced about making $16,000 salary wjen he was that old.  It's been a fun week.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2020, 08:29:38 PM »
I plan on watching from 4pm until the Steelers kick off at 4:25. Eastern Time. I hope it goes well.


Do you not mention your consultant’s name in case he feverishly googles his name late at night?  Doesn’t seem like him.


No, I just dislike name-dropping or making anyone think we are great friends or anything, but I was happy to see Brooks played much better today, rounding into form for a major as he so often does.  He has been very generous this week talking up the course when I'm sure he would really rather just focus on next week.


If I wanted to name drop I would recount the dinner conversation from last night between a HoF baseball player and a 23-year-old golfer, where the baseballer reminsced about making $16,000 salary wjen he was that old.  It's been a fun week.


Tom, just saw your instagram post where you are hitting a shot at MP. You have a very Moe Normanesque leg action, although with much lower hands at address. This coupled with a bit of a Snead inside and over move. I was expecting more of a ultra-athletic Brooks Koepka type move. What gives?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If Memorial Park was a thruple, what courses would it be?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2020, 08:35:19 PM »
I plan on watching from 4pm until the Steelers kick off at 4:25. Eastern Time. I hope it goes well.


Do you not mention your consultant’s name in case he feverishly googles his name late at night?  Doesn’t seem like him.


No, I just dislike name-dropping or making anyone think we are great friends or anything, but I was happy to see Brooks played much better today, rounding into form for a major as he so often does.  He has been very generous this week talking up the course when I'm sure he would really rather just focus on next week.


If I wanted to name drop I would recount the dinner conversation from last night between a HoF baseball player and a 23-year-old golfer, where the baseballer reminsced about making $16,000 salary wjen he was that old.  It's been a fun week.


Not a bad dude in the bunch. http://www.whosaliveandwhosdead.com/l_bbhof.asp I had a few fun minutes myself wondering who it could have been.