Eyes wide shut (or are they open)

[JMEvensky]

I'm with Peter. Mark Fine's threads provoked discussion, Pat Mucci's threads were frequently just thinly veiled sermons.


Anytime actual GCA's argue/parse/discuss in a thread, it's worthwhile to the lay people. For that reason alone Mark's threads are welcomed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff -
I miss Pat Mucci's contributions here, and I genuinely liked him as a person. But sometimes he started threads that drove me crazy, because they were so 'on the nose' and were based on premises that were so obvious/true and inarguable that there was nothing left to actually discuss! [Not an ideal quality on a discussion board.] A thread title might be something like "Fairways should be sufficiently wide.....as to allow golfers to engage with the architect's original strategic intent". Or, "Absent the presence of a steady wind....well-designed green contours are a key element to providing both challenge and fun". I mean, what can one do with subject lines like that except to say "Yes, you're right. It's true. I agree", and then maybe mention Seminole or Pine Valley (but only if you'd played them a dozen times). Which is to say: in truth, I think Mark's thread has proven a good one, but mostly because posters have chosen to make it so and to engage with/explore the subject more deeply. On its own, it did have more than a touch of the Mucci to it, i.e. what can one possibly discuss/argue about when the premise is "We should try to have open minds about different styles of golf course architecture and to enjoy a wide-variety of golf courses"?  I can't speak for anyone else, but if I thought that's all Mark was getting at I wouldn't and couldn't have even posted -- or if I did it would simply have been to say: "Yes, you're right. It's true. I agree." Instead, I assumed that I was missing something, and that Mark had another/different point to make and explore. But if he did he did not make it explicit, as far as I can tell.

There have been a few ASGCA members (and others in the golf industry, and let's face it, everywhere) who spend inordinate time asking questions to which the only possible answer can be, "Yes, you are right Mr. X."  I will leave it to others to judge their motivations in asking such questions.  Mark, thankfully, did nothing even approaching that.  I know self serving questioners, and believe me, Mark is not one!

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - I didn’t say or suggest anything about Mark’s premise-thread being ‘self serving’. That thought didn’t even occur to me. What I said was that the premise-subject as stated seemed obviously and inarguably true/sensible, such that (unless there was some idea or concept or nuance I was missing) it  didn’t lend itself easily to meaningful discussion and debate — and so I assumed there was indeed more there than I was seeing.
But I think I now answered for myself your question about how many posts it takes before one abandons a thread!

[Ira Fishman]

Jeff,
Do you think this is worth the time to argue?


Ira,
You are right, I am wrong.  Have a great day 

Mark,


Thanks, we did have a great day. My wife and I played a brisk (walking) nine holes on a beautiful afternoon in NC on a very good Ross course. We could have chosen the Fazio course across the road, but the bunkering scheme is dumb, or the Jones course up the road which we like, but is a bit penal and becomes less interesting over the last several holes.


My wife has almost no idea about who any architect is or is not (except for Ross because we belong to the aforementioned course and have played MP/PN several times). She just loves golf. We have been fortunate to travel some over the past several years. Her least favorite courses:


Nairn (too many penal bunkers)
Wailea Gold (too many forced carries)
PH8 (boring, and too penal green sites—and we just played PH2 which she loved)
Finley (the aforementioned across the road course)


She does not know the names of the architects. Nor do my views influence her: like you, she enjoyed Kapulua Plantation. She liked Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns much more than I did. She did not care for Old Mac while I enjoyed it. We both liked Killarney Killeen quite a bit although me probably more than she.


But to Ally’s point: if you plopped Sheryl down on Golspie or Kilspindie or Brora or Elie or Balcomie, she would be happy to never leave. And that goes for The Island Club despite its difficulty.


My point: do not make assumptions about why and how we evaluate courses. Neither of us could care less about the name of the architect. Nor in my experience do most of the people who read this site.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

 Neither of us could care less about the name of the architect. Nor in my experience do most of the people who read this site.

Ira

Really?!

[Ira Fishman]

 Neither of us could care less about the name of the architect. Nor in my experience do most of the people who read this site.

Ira

Really?!

Ok, I did go a bit too far with that generalization. But I did say “most” not “any”.


Ira

[Tim Martin]

 Neither of us could care less about the name of the architect. Nor in my experience do most of the people who read this site.

Ira

Really?!

Ok, I did go a bit too far with that generalization. But I did say “most” not “any”.


Ira

Ira-I appreciate the back handed concession but would add that when you purport to represent most you are making quite a leap. Readers of this site are more than just the fifteen hundred people with a sign on. That said I will happily concede that you and your wife “could care less about the name of the architect.”

[Ira Fishman]

Tim,


You are correct. I should not make assumptions about the views of people who do not post.


Ira