Redan Par 3 Holes - 2020 Catalog

[Jeff Schley]

16 at Brookville on LI is a reverse one I think. Westhampton has one at somewhere around 7. 8ish at Knollwood in Westchester I think might be one as well (reverse). I played it in miserable weather and wasn't really paying a lot of attention to my surrounds.

Can we get some help in verifying the details of this?  I don't want to post foggy memories. 

[Jeff Schley]

I have built several Redan holes but the 17th at CommonGround is NOT one of them.   


Mine are/were:


  4th High Pointe*
16th Charlotte Golf Links*
14th Apache Stronghold
17th Pacific Dunes
17th Stonewall (North)
16th St. Andrews Beach  [kind of]
12th Old Macdonald
  8th Simapo Island*
  4th The Loop (Red) [kind of]


* no longer existing

I'm only posting holes that are in existence as of now.
Got CG and Rawls from Andy Johnson article on Redans.
https://thefriedegg.com/redan-redux-template-hole/
As the designer you have the final word. I took off CG, but is the Rawls one?

[Jeff Schley]

If the 13th at Yale is a Redan, then I expect this list to be about 5,000 holes long.


There have been many, many discussions on the defining characteristics of a Redan. But for me it’s simple:


Angled green where you can reach a back pin position in one of two ways: Fly directly at it over a bunker OR play out wide, land ball short and feed it down on the front to back slope.


Without all of these features, you are describing a hole so common it is not worthy of being given a name.


Yale is fantastic by the way. But a drop-shot Redan just cannot really exist.

OK OK....it's off.....
But I took it from Andy Johnson's Fried Egg Redan piece.
https://thefriedegg.com/redan-template-hole/

[Jeff Schley]

FYI
I'm only including holes in existence and the original architect, unless the Redan was made new by the new GCA. Restoring a Redan isn't listed. So while we want to note restoration work by some of our active friends and colleagues that is the bar to give credit on this thread.

[Ben Voelker]

Jeff,


Beau Desert's 7th (Fowler) very much feels like a redan, whether it was meant to be a template or not I don't know.  See Sean Arble's photo tour:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html

[Chris_Blakely]

8th hole Old White
4th hole Stonebridge GL (Reverse)
3rd hole Rock Spring
4th hole Mount Prospect (reverse)

Stonebridge GL designed by George Bahto
Mount Prospect designed by David Esler

[Tim Martin]

Keney Park 13 CT
Robert Jack Ross/Matt Dusenberry

Emmet originally designed the front nine while Hartford city engineer Robert Jack Ross was responsible for the back.

 

[Jeff Schley]

8th hole Old White
4th hole Stonebridge GL (Reverse)
3rd hole Rock Spring
4th hole Mount Prospect (reverse)

Stonebridge GL designed by George Bahto
Mount Prospect designed by David Esler

Roger that. thanks Chris.

[Jim Sherma]

Elkridge in Baltimore - #17. Raynor course but not a Raynor hole. Built by Silva as part of his restoration work.

[Stewart Abramson]

Minnesota Valley #2 MN (Raynor- subject to Anthony Pioppi's caveat re: attribution)

[Ben Hollerbach]

4th at Rivermont.

[John McCarthy]

Blackstone #2, Bob Lohmann

[david h. carroll]

#3 Ballyhack Lester George
#12 Navy new addition by Andrew Green reverse

[Niall C]

Question - are you including MacKenzie's Gibraltar style holes ? He claimed he hadn't seen the Redan at NB before he designed the original Gibraltar hole at Moortown but it bears more than a passing resemblance to NB's Redan in terms of the basic idea and is in line with Ally's criteria for a Redan ?


If so then there is the Gibraltar hole (no idea of the number) and another at Pollok in Glasgow (again no idea of the number) off the top of my head.


Niall

[mike_malone]

I have been lucky to play THE Redan a number of times. I think you should have a shorter list of redans.


                        1

[Tommy Williamsen]

#3 Ballyhack Lester George
#12 Navy new addition by Andrew Green reverse

3 at Ballyhack has the shape of a redan but it doesn’t play like one.

[Bill Brightly]

I believe Metairie Country Club (Louisiana) has a reverse Redan.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Just played Biltmore Forest CC in Asheville, NC for first time and it has two Redan's


#9--par 3 (although at 161 from tips a bit short)
#16---par 4 (so "ineligible" for this list)...but a really special hole

[Sean_A]

I have been lucky to play THE Redan a number of times. I think you should have a shorter list of redans.

I tend to agree. There are basic tenants of The Redan that when combined make the hole what it is.

1. Overall at least flat if not uphill to the front of the green. Green should at least be obscured and landing zone blind.

2. A dip shy of the green.

3. Trouble both sides of the green, but one side more favourable and one side with a steep fall away.

4. Space to the rear of green. This feature is tightly aligned with 5.

5. Tilted and front to back green.

It would be better if the original named holes stood alone as they generally are unique. However, if the names of these holes are to be used as a way to describe other holes they should fairly accurately reflect the attributes of the originals or have qualifiers to more accurately describe the hole. I recall seeing Yeamans Redan the first time and thinking, no, it's certainly not close in design to The Redan for that name to be an accurate description, but it's a very good hole. Merion's Redan is a bad joke.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


You probably know that I disagree with your 5 points of what defines a Redan. I think you are veering towards the physical attributes of the hole whereas I believe it should be defined by the playing attributes.


Those playing attributes may be more pronounced on one or two of the CBM templates than they are in the original. But for me those are what define the hole. Namely:


1. Angled green where you can fly to a back pin position directly over a hazard OR you can play out wide, land short and let the ball feed round by bouncing it in. Generally front to back and right to left slope to accentuate this.


Everything else is window dressing.


With that, I agree with you and Mike that this list is probably already too long.

[Sean_A]

Sean,


You probably know that I disagree with your 5 points of what defines a Redan. I think you are veering towards the physical attributes of the hole whereas I believe it should be defined by the playing attributes.


Those playing attributes may be more pronounced on one or two of the CBM templates than they are in the original. But for me those are what define the hole. Namely:


1. Angled green where you can fly to a back pin position directly over a hazard OR you can play out wide, land short and let the ball feed round by bouncing it in. Generally front to back and right to left slope to accentuate this.


Everything else is window dressing.


With that, I agree with you and Mike that this list is probably already too long.

The physical attributes determine the playing attributes. Hence the the landing zone being blind is an incredibly important aspect of the Redan. That element of doubt introduced by blindness can seriously affect how one decides to play the hole.

I also think the open rear of the green is very important to the original.

It's the window dressing which makes the Redan more compelling than the Gibraltar. I think many of the holes described as Redans are really closer to Gibraltars.

Ciao

[Jeff Schley]

I believe Metairie Country Club (Louisiana) has a reverse Redan.

Bill go ahead and verify and happy to add it if so.

[Jeff Schley]

Question - are you including MacKenzie's Gibraltar style holes ? He claimed he hadn't seen the Redan at NB before he designed the original Gibraltar hole at Moortown but it bears more than a passing resemblance to NB's Redan in terms of the basic idea and is in line with Ally's criteria for a Redan ?


If so then there is the Gibraltar hole (no idea of the number) and another at Pollok in Glasgow (again no idea of the number) off the top of my head.


Niall

Team open to this discussion. My intention is to list any par 3 holes that have Redan style greens. I have noted R for reverse, but don't have anything else to further separate them.
Perhaps once completed we can have some of our more savy and type A posters identify a system for true redans and denote those.  However, I'll list what everyone is posting for now.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

From a lurker:


Rock Spring is in NJ, not NYWanumetonomy #17Dedham #17 (Reverse Redan)Dudley Hill (Mass.) Golf Club, #6

[Tony_Muldoon]

IO can recall playing 2 'homages'.


3 rounds at Chart Hills Kent  Smyers/Faldo.  Each time the semi blind, slightly sloping "USGA" green has held my shot with minimal run. OK hole but not a reflection of the original.




2 rounds at West Cliffs, Portugal. Cynthia Dye. Both times my ball ran off the green (from 130 yards). Both times I was as many feet below the surface as I was off it.  Both times I had to land my chip (from thick 2" grass) onto a knife edge crease.
Awful hole and nothing to do with the original.


Surprised there's not been more examples given, I've often heard it described as the most copied template?