OT - The architectural sleeper hit of the year

[Peter Pallotta]

OT because I don’t have the insight or experience or knowledge to make a meaningful statement, but:

I think it will be the renovation of Houston’s Memorial Park — highlighted by next week’s tour stop and then reinforced via 60,000 public rounds in the year to come

Watched the very good hole by hole on houstonopengolf.com, featuring Tom and Mike and Don — and so many things from irrigation to hole lengths seem so right to me, especially in the context of a dual purpose venue.

As I say, just a neophyte outsider’s view, and I know it hasn’t exactly flown under the radar, but I think this renovation will be — should be — the sleeper hit of the season

[JESII]

Lets hope so

[David Wuthrich]

Given what they were given to work with, Tom, Mike and Don did a wonderful job!!

[JMEvensky]

What do you know about this stuff? You don't even pay attention to trees and oceans.

[Jason Thurman]

Memorial Park is hosting a Tour event on a course renovated by Tom Doak. Hardly a sleeper. I love the ethos and I look forward to seeing it in action, but surely it's more like the closest thing to a major studio summer blockbuster release happening in 2020.


Lac La Belle hasn't received a fraction of the attention by comparison. It's crazy to me that a course THAT good opened, welcoming the public, in one of the richest public-golf states in the US, and generated hardly a peep. I root for Memorial Park to be an influential and excellent project. But Lac La Belle has plenty to say about golf's future on its own, and cements Craig Haltom as the biggest star in golf course architecture that 70% of the GCA world has never heard of.

[Tom_Doak]

Given what they were given to work with, Tom, Mike and Don did a wonderful job!!

Damned by faint praise?  There wasn't much to work with.


I don't have any idea what to expect from the tournament or whether anyone outside of GCA (and of course the regulars in Houston) will care about the golf course.


 It is certainly not typical of my work, because it was a much different problem to solve, and a much different site than my norm (flat with heavy soils).  So, maybe not the course I would choose to be featured on TV, but of course that's not how the PGA TOUR works. 


I do think it will come off as different.  The last six holes are designed toward producing an exciting finish, so that the leader in the clubhouse is unlikely to win.  The giant lake on 16 & 17 is there to store runoff and minimize the use of city water, first, but as long as we needed it we decided to make it a main feature of play.


It would have been more fun with a bigger gallery, but hopefully the 2000 fans / day will add a bit of life to the competition.

[Bernie Bell]

So, to wrap in ideas from concurrent threads, are Pacific Dunes and Old Mac "golf as it was meant to be," or is Memorial?  Or, is golf not actually "meant to be" any one particular way, and one should keep eyes wide open?

[Buck Wolter]

I stepped in it when this was announced by suggesting Tom wouldn't really list to Brooks input which IIRC Tom took some offense to.


After the fact, Tom could you give us some things to watch out for over the course of the tournament where you incorporated things Brooks suggested and some insight into how that collaboration worked? Is it something you'd do again?

[Ira Fishman]

Given what they were given to work with, Tom, Mike and Don did a wonderful job!!

Damned by faint praise?  There wasn't much to work with.


I don't have any idea what to expect from the tournament or whether anyone outside of GCA (and of course the regulars in Houston) will care about the golf course.


 It is certainly not typical of my work, because it was a much different problem to solve, and a much different site than my norm (flat with heavy soils).  So, maybe not the course I would choose to be featured on TV, but of course that's not how the PGA TOUR works. 


I do think it will come off as different.  The last six holes are designed toward producing an exciting finish, so that the leader in the clubhouse is unlikely to win.  The giant lake on 16 & 17 is there to store runoff and minimize the use of city water, first, but as long as we needed it we decided to make it a main feature of play.


It would have been more fun with a bigger gallery, but hopefully the 2000 fans / day will add a bit of life to the competition.

Tom, to what extent or in what ways did what you learned from Mr. Dye about flat clay sites influence your design and decisions?


Thanks.

[Peter Pallotta]

What do you know about this stuff? You don't even pay attention to trees and oceans.

It's true -- but I listen very carefully to what the experts *say*!

Jimmy - I think you'd love playing the course. I think it's probably too much golf course for me from any tee, but I can see you playing it from the back tees and doing very well.

JT - yes, it is relative and not a sleeper compared to Lac La Belle; but it isn't a US Open renovation, nor a course with acclaimed-golden age architectural pedigree, nor is it a private & exclusive club with a storied history.

TD - I'm glad you and the team got to work on a course you wouldn't choose to be featured on tv or that is typical of your work, and one on a different site than usual and that had new kinds of problems to solve. 

Bernie - yes, it's true. But -- and here's a howler for you -- I think the real problem is that so many think of a Pacific and a Memorial as so very different.

[mike_malone]

Llanerch has created some innovative stuff. It’s fun and different.

[JESII]

Mayday - hello Mayday...what in the world are you talking about?

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I just played Llanerch.  Did you say fun and different or wild and crazy 


Tom,
Hope the tournament goes well.  And welcome to the world of problems and challenges the rest of us have to deal with working on sites like this 

[Tom_Doak]

After the fact, Tom could you give us some things to watch out for over the course of the tournament where you incorporated things Brooks suggested and some insight into how that collaboration worked? Is it something you'd do again?

Brooks's input included


 - not caring about the winning score
 - focusing on making the finishing holes exciting for fans
 - keeping the par-3 holes short and difficult (except the 11th where I pushed for more length)
 - relatively few bunkers
 - the back hole location at #5 where players will have to skip in a wedge shot or be perfect with their distance control
 - the water in play on 15 (though I turned a pond into a creek)

[Kalen Braley]

Before and after look with Google and Bing Maps:

Before: (Looks like the changes were recently underway)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Memorial+Park/@29.7717069,-95.4380009,977m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8640c12c8a75250f:0xb692572c2d33b36!8m2!3d29.7667498!4d-95.4410469

After:
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=ca9d5a5c-31bd-4b5d-9fff-d6e92bdc6037&cp=29.771026~-95.439235&lvl=17&style=h&imgid=1924f1c8-339a-44ef-85ed-2de467b417a0&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027

[mike_malone]

Mayday - hello Mayday...what in the world are you talking about?

Architectural Sleeper hit of the year.

[Mark Kiely]

I'm still trying to figure out why this thread title says OT in it. If this isn't the stuff we're supposed to talk about here, what is?

[Joel_Stewart]

I'll nominate Beverly CC which rolled the dice and came up big, making it one of the best clubs in Chicago.


Also Sheep Ranch which has been a huge success with players.

[mike_malone]

I have yet to see Jaeger Kovich’s work this year but hear nice things about Cedarbrook.

[Tom_Doak]

Also Sheep Ranch which has been a huge success with players.

It may well be the course of the year, but it was by far the most publicized course of the year, so I don't know how you could call it a sleeper.

[Don Mahaffey]

As we've ramped up for the tournament what I've enjoyed most is hearing how surprised the tour support staff and vendors have been to discover the beauty of Memorial Park in the Houston urban jungle. Twice the size of Central Park, Memorial Park is a true urban sanctuary.  The golf course has sold every tee time since it opened last November after the renovation and I'm confident the tee times will be more scarce after next week. Tom, Brooks, Mike, Eric, Brian, Brian, Blake, and my team with the support of the Astros Golf Foundation delivered a vey nice value for the people of Houston. I believe the tournament will help prove that to be true.

[Lou_Duran]

Well, GOLF has decreed that Wolf Point is the #1 course in TX.  Maybe its raters should chime in this new category.  My bet is that MP would be the odds on favorite.  BTW, I was not a big fan of the course before the renovation, though it was a very suitable, challenging municipal.  Looking forward to the seeing the tournament.

[Peter Pallotta]

One of the reasons I called it a 'sleeper' is that, even post renovation, I'm guessing it will be few people's idea of a "great" golf course. (It will no doubt continue to be referred to as "one of the finest municipal courses in the country".) It doesn't have the 'ideal soils', or 'dramatic views/setting' or 'rolling topography' or a 'wild set of greens' etc; and compared to the high-profile renovations & restorations of classic/famous courses of the past 10 years, it doesn't look *restored* or even all that *renovated*! Ah, but there's the rub -- because from all I've read and seen, what it *does* now have is very interesting & appealing and important, on many fronts. I don't have either the words or the broader context to usefully contribute, but I hope those who do will really see the value & quality of the place, and talk it up and bring it 'into the conversation'. To me, it seems an excellent example of/metaphor for the grand but understated inland English courses that Sean plays and that have led him to pronounce that "greatness is over-rated". 

[Steve Lang]

Peter,


I'd take a time out and edit out that last sentence.


Its great to have MP back in full swing, I liked the improvements 25 years ago, mainly switching the 9's and the overall improvements on Bredemus's 1936 gem. 


I had the pleasure to tour the front 9 with Tom & Mike, and capture some debate on 15's creek and maintaining the slopes down to it...  its still a walk in the park with old friends, but with a lot more to see, think about, and negotiate, especially with the old drainage channels cleared and the new pond acreage, let alone the new greens and their surrounds. 


I say mission well accomplished and I cannot wait to see it on TV with elevated views and all...  having birdied 14 & 15 last time out, I wonder if any of the pro's can birdie 14-18 to grab a W?

[Mike Nuzzo]

After the fact, Tom could you give us some things to watch out for over the course of the tournament where you incorporated things Brooks suggested and some insight into how that collaboration worked? Is it something you'd do again?

Brooks's input included


 - not caring about the winning score
 - focusing on making the finishing holes exciting for fans
 - keeping the par-3 holes short and difficult (except the 11th where I pushed for more length)
 - relatively few bunkers
 - the back hole location at #5 where players will have to skip in a wedge shot or be perfect with their distance control
 - the water in play on 15 (though I turned a pond into a creek)

Brooks also had input and feedback on how specific trees would impact play.
When Tom describes the 5th green back hole location, here Brooks gave feedback during shaping - i.e. yes that target is big enough for him to aim for - it isn't big! Some other hole locations were sized to be just big enough for the tour player - back right on 16.
The ravines that were revealed are the most appealing and dramatic changes (#2-7).
The greens before were all vanilla, they are more like a Baskin Robins now.
The walk has also been improved and prior to the changes it was an ideal walk in the park.


Lou!
Wolf Point was built for 1 person with zero oversight.
Memorial was redesigned to be played by 60,000 public players a year & 100+ tour pros a year, with oversight by the City of Houston, the PGA Tour and the Astros Golf Foundation.
You seem disappointed that Wolf Point was added to the list.
I don't think that Memorial will be added to any lists, other then great munis that hold great events.
No one said anything about any lists at any point during the project - the same is true for Wolf Point.
That is one of the points Peter has been describing.
It is an excellent piece of work that many will enjoy.