[William_G]

14- spot on, must land on small spot to have a chance when wind blowing
16- spot on, everyone ends up short right with lob wedge likely out of divot
18- not a bad hole, good finisher, must hit the shot on every shot

[Steve Lang]

   Only been there once, for 4 days, for the opening of Old Mac, where I almost missed my tee time talking with George Bahto (well worth it in retrospect)...,.. very much enjoyed everything at resort, including the library, and we played Bandon Crossings also for a warm up.     Definitely thought it a touch expensive, but hey, feeling the wind on your face, looking down those fairways, what could be better?


 William_G how many times have you played there?  Do they still call oldMac and BT the caddy killer day?


The links the NLU and TS were fun to watch, thanks... i don't normally go looking for such, but used to play a lot of Wolf games on buddy golf trips over the decades in N/S Carolina and TN/KY and Ohio... 

[William_G]

Steve, played there so many times, I have no idea


there are no killer courses for caddies at Bandon, just killer clients LOL

[Alex Miller]

On a separate note, for those who have played Pacific Dunes, was anyone surprised by Neil's critique of holes 14, 16 and 18 and or in agreement with some or all his opinions? Having never played there, I have no opinion. I'm curious as to what others who have played the course feel about those holes and others on PD they either love or have issue with.

I think the fact that they were playing in a strong wind day, even for Bandon, probably factored into this. But then again those are not uncommon conditions.


14 is a small landing area, but I don't think it crosses any lines. Just a lot tougher than you'd expect for a 140yd hole.
16 I've never really been a fan of despite much fanfare here, and I generally agree with Neil's thoughts.
18 I also agreed with the criticism, but it is still a beautiful hole. Just not the birdie chance you expect...


Personally holes 2-15 at PD is as good as it gets anywhere for me, and I love 17 as well. I love Neil's take on PD as the course BRINGS it for the vast majority of the round.

[William_G]

agreed Alex


can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish

[Jason Thurman]

I can dig the points Neil makes on 14/16/18.


14 works, as a hole, because it creates this awkward catch-22. Playing from high-point to high-point in a windy spot, you want to play a lower-flighted, piercing shot... but stronger players have to pull it off with a short iron or wedge. I like that conundrum, but it's definitely tough, especially with the north wind to a front pin.


And along the same lines, if there's a single thing about Pac Dunes I don't love, it's that it has a few more short and technical holes than I'd probably prefer, and not as many brawnier and more athletic holes. That's just personal preference - I admire the uniquely sporty character of the course, but I do like a fair share of "big" holes. And in a windy spot, it's almost nice to hit a few more approach shots with mid-and-longer irons, and a few fewer with wedges.


In that light, it's not surprising that someone might also criticize 16. But I also think he's complaining about his own lack of course management a bit there. Sure, that right side gathers balls left short. It's essentially a hazard in plain sight. But if that lanky whiny guy can score an eagle putt on that hole, nobody has any right to complain about getting stuck with a ticklish pitch.


I don't love 18. But I probably could use a few more plays. I'm not going to bitch about it in the same post where I complain that Pac Dunes might not have enough brawny, athletic holes. Really, it reminds me a bit of my home club's finishing par 5 - it's not especially charming (although it's very handsome), and it's not meant to be. It's a par 5 home hole where good play will yield a birdie putt, but not if you hit a loose shot along the way. I don't think it would be a better hole if it rewarded an indiscriminately bashed driver, for example.

[Sven Nilsen]

agreed Alex


can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish

We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17.  Noodle that one for a bit.

[Sven Nilsen]

14 works, as a hole, because it creates this awkward catch-22. Playing from high-point to high-point in a windy spot, you want to play a lower-flighted, piercing shot... but stronger players have to pull it off with a short iron or wedge. I like that conundrum, but it's definitely tough, especially with the north wind to a front pin.

There are two winds at Bandon.  The lower-flighted, piercing shot is an option in the winter, when the hole plays into the wind.  But in the summer, anything low is probably going to run through.  The shot when its downwind is a normal wedge (or other appropriate club) played to 10-15 yards short of pin high.  The mistake most people make here is to take too much off the shot, not realizing the wind is going to knock the ball down a bit.


The other key factor is the premium on hitting a shot at the middle of the green.  Often times folks will over swing thinking they need to crush the ball resulting in a pull or even worse a slice into the right bunker or short right (the miss here is always left).


Downwind, if you can hit a low iron relatively straight, its a pretty easy hole.  But the tabletop aspect of the green and the way it looks like such a small target adds a good bit to the mental game.


Into the wind is a different beast.  The slight push by the breeze to the left can create issues for anyone who over cooks a draw.  And a holding fade has to be perfectly judged for distance. 


Its a nice complement to 11 earlier in the round which plays in the opposite direction, with 11 having a bit more bailout room on the right.

[William_G]

agreed Alex


can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish

We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17.  Noodle that one for a bit.

more birdies for my groups on 17 than 18 by far, LOL....noodling.... hahaha

[Alex Miller]

agreed Alex


can't remember the last birdie I had on 18, need to have 3 great shots to get a makeable putt
18 green slopes away and to the right, very devilish

We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17.  Noodle that one for a bit.

My last two rounds at PD I had better looks on 17 than 18, but overall not too surprising: I just think it's about expectation. 17 is an intimidating and demanding par 3 in both winds. 18 is a par 5 and golfers' expectations will be that there ought to be a better chance at birdie, but I think disaster can strike on the drive when people are overeager to grasp at that chance.


I think 18 goes from a good to a great hole with more room right on the drive. The line of charm and bunker left make it a thrilling shot regardless, but the risk outweighs the reward with how tight the gorse comes in on the right. Taking the gorse out would allow people to play the thrills and not meet disaster if they're not perfect.

[Sven Nilsen]

Alex -


For those that the right gorse/tree line might be an issue, 3-wood is probably the play.


The better players in the caddie yard regularly hit 3-wood or driving iron (even from the Black tees) up the right side and still have a chance at getting on the green. 


If you play to be short of the bunker, its a massively wide fairway.  From there, the layup to the middle of the fairway is a relatively benign shot leaving a good look at the green in 3.


For most players (the average handicap we see is somewhere around 15), we're pretty happy if they keep their tee ball in play and don't dump their second shot into the hollow on the left or the bunkers off the fairway on the right.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17.  Noodle that one for a bit.

more birdies for my groups on 17 than 18 by far, LOL....noodling.... hahaha

No offense, but I like the size of my sample group (and the range of skills) a bit more than yours.

[William_G]

We see way more makeable birdie putts on 18 than we do on 17.  Noodle that one for a bit.

more birdies for my groups on 17 than 18 by far, LOL....noodling.... hahaha

No offense, but I like the size of my sample group (and the range of skills) a bit more than yours.

hahaha, no worries

[Sven Nilsen]

I like these videos a ton, more so for the quality of the images and the way they translate the Bandon experience to those that might not have been here yet.


But I am not a fan at all of any of their analyses. 


I'd be more interested in hearing the take of those that regularly see a course than those that drop by once in a while.


Give me the Pine Valley video done by Archie and his fellow caddies.  Or a Pebble walk through by the loopers down there.


These are the guys that really know a course, and know how it stands up to the play of a wide variety of players.

[Kalen Braley]

Sven,

Given your data points... how often do you see players, especially in a summer wind, end up in the divoted collection area on 16 just short of the green, facing a very difficult pitch up the hill to the green?

[William_G]

Sven,
no doubt would have been great to get some caddie insight etc... on these vids
the critiques are all essentially first world problems, I mean it's Bandon, every course is great...nitpicking at best by these knuckleheads...
you are spot on the quality of the vids is awesome, love the drone stuff
more to come
glad you are well

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Given your data points... how often do you see players, especially in a summer wind, end up in the divoted collection area on 16 just short of the green, facing a very difficult pitch up the hill to the green?

Kalen -


Anyone that can hit it up by the green off the tee usually ends up on the hillside, which has light rough.  Still not the easiest shot in the world, as most players don't realize the ball is still going to run away from them once they hit the green.


Most of the people that end up where you are talking about do so because they duffed their second shot.


Its a 305-325 yard hole with a large fairway area to land in to give yourself a 100 yard shot into the green.  And if you favor left on your second shot, the up and down from that side of the green is very doable  Here, greed is not always good.


At this length, I think the hole does a great job of presenting a risk/reward opportunity.


Sven

[Kalen Braley]

I only played it once, but I guess I got unlucky.

I knew enough about the hole before hand to know not to hit a driver up the right.  So I hit a 5 wood up the left and saw it disappear over a large fairway rumple.  When I got up there, couldn't find it anywhere, until I saw a ball down in the divot ridden area just short of the green 50-60 yards away from where I thought it would be....and that was it. 

I then recall looking at the land forms and thinking it was a very large collection to a relatively small spot, which seemed to explain why it looked like a mini mine field.

Safe to say I had a helluva time getting it in the hole from there.  In retrospect I should have played away from the green out to the left and pitched on to save par instead of trying to go for the green on the next shot.

[William_G]

Alex -

The better players in the caddie yard regularly hit 3-wood or driving iron (even from the Black tees) up the right side and still have a chance at getting on the green. 

If you play to be short of the bunker, its a massively wide fairway.  From there, the layup to the middle of the fairway is a relatively benign shot leaving a good look at the green in 3.


Sven

possibly best to call 18 a second shot hole?


familiarity of play by the caddies in many conditions leads to improved success

[Sven Nilsen]

I only played it once, but I guess I got unlucky.

I knew enough about the hole before hand to know not to hit a driver up the right.  So I hit a 5 wood up the left and saw it disappear over a large fairway rumple.  When I got up there, couldn't find it anywhere, until I saw a ball down in the divot ridden area just short of the green 50-60 yards away from where I thought it would be....and that was it. 

I then recall looking at the land forms and thinking it was a very large collection to a relatively small spot, which seemed to explain why it looked like a mini mine field.

Safe to say I had a helluva time getting it in the hole from there.  In retrospect I should have played away from the green out to the left and pitched on to save par instead of trying to go for the green on the next shot.

How far do you hit 5-wood?  Sounds like you (a) hit it too far to the right or (b) used the wrong club to lay up to the fat part of the fairway (100 yards out on the left side).


Or you just got a bad bounce, which can happen on links golf courses.


No shame in not being able to figure out the hole on your one and only play.  Happens a lot.

[Kalen Braley]

My 5 wood is usually 195-200.  With a tail wind, I figured I get another 20 yards or so to put me in the ~100 left zone. It was definitely going up the left side, with a touch of fade per my normal ball flight.

I only recall this so vividly because as a shortish hitter its not often to have my ball end up so far away from where I'd expect it to be.  And perhaps they've modified it since then, but it also really struck me how large the collection area was to end up in such a small spot.

P.S. One of my playing partners ended up a few yards away in another divot, but he went up the right so it was "expected".

[Sven Nilsen]

My 5 wood is usually 195-200.  With a tail wind, I figured I get another 20 yards or so to put me in the ~100 left zone. It was definitely going up the left side, with a touch of fade per my normal ball flight.

I only recall this so vividly because as a shortish hitter its not often to have my ball end up so far away from where I'd expect it to be.  And perhaps they've modified it since then, but it also really struck me how large the collection area was to end up in such a small spot.

P.S. One of my playing partners ended up a few yards away in another divot, but he went up the right so it was "expected".

Nothing has been modified on 16, other than possibly different mow heights in places.


After 15 holes you should have realized your 200 yard club could end up going 240-250 downwind and with bounce and roll on firm turf, especially so if you're a fader riding the left to right breeze on 16. 


Your caddie would have, but I'm guessing you didn't have one.


You either go for the green on 16 (taking on the risk) or lay well enough back to leave yourself a full shot into the green from the left side.  No one wants to hit a half wedge into that green.

[Kalen Braley]

Pretty spot on analysis there, certainly agreed.  I thought I was laying back far enough to hit a full 100 yard wedge, but mis-judged.

I definitely need to get back and I probably could afford a caddie now! 

P.S.  14 was my only birdie of the round, I landed my tee ball a few yards short of the green and it rolled to about 6 feet. Super easy! 

[Mike Bodo]

Sven, were you working at Bandon when the NLU guys were there filming this summer and did you by chance caddie for any of them during their stay at the resort? Would be curious to hear your take on their games. LOL!

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven, were you working at Bandon when the NLU guys were there filming this summer and did you by chance caddie for any of them during their stay at the resort? Would be curious to hear your take on their games. LOL!

Mike:


I don't know when they were here.  We've had a lot of press and instagram golf experts visit this summer.  Seems like there's been a drone up just about every day.


Sven

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