Putting

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

The arc/straight isn't a factor at all, no. Common misconception. Feel is subjective for the face material, so get what you like.

Erik, Isn't a heel shafted putter best used with an arc and a center shafter putted straight back and through?

https://www.scottycameron.com/media/8569/scotty-cameron-art-of-putting-and-selection-guide.pdf

[Rob Marshall]

Sound and feel from Scotty Cameron:


“In the Studio, we have experimented extensively with the “Art of Sound” to really understand what it is about sound that changes the characteristicts of the putter. Let me first say that sound is personal opinion. What one person interprets to be a soft or controlled sound another player may find to be “tinny” or “hot”. That said, one of the first experiments we did was to put rifle style headphones, which could eliminate all sound, on a player and ask him to tell us which putter had the best feel. After testing several putters, some with sound slots and some without, the player could not identify one putter over the other. So it is sound that translates into feel and not the other way around. Sound has much more to do with feel than feel itself.”

[David Ober]

Sound and feel from Scotty Cameron:


“In the Studio, we have experimented extensively with the “Art of Sound” to really understand what it is about sound that changes the characteristicts of the putter. Let me first say that sound is personal opinion. What one person interprets to be a soft or controlled sound another player may find to be “tinny” or “hot”. That said, one of the first experiments we did was to put rifle style headphones, which could eliminate all sound, on a player and ask him to tell us which putter had the best feel. After testing several putters, some with sound slots and some without, the player could not identify one putter over the other. So it is sound that translates into feel and not the other way around. Sound has much more to do with feel than feel itself.”

Yup. My buddy, who was an engineer at TaylorMade, told me this 15 years ago. TaylorMade figured that out when doing tests for drivers. Still, though, the sound itself is highly subjective when it comes to how it translates to feel -- like Cameron said.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

The arc/straight isn't a factor at all, no. Common misconception. Feel is subjective for the face material, so get what you like.

Erik, Isn't a heel shafted putter best used with an arc and a center shafter putted straight back and through?

https://www.scottycameron.com/media/8569/scotty-cameron-art-of-putting-and-selection-guide.pdf

Interesting article but it says nothing about center shafted putters.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik, Isn't a heel shafted putter best used with an arc and a center shafter putted straight back and through?

First, virtually nobody putts SBST. Not on putts of any length. Second, that stuff is a common misconception, but really doesn't matter at all. Nor does toe hang, etc. The forces and torques are so small, just holding the putter off the ground easily overcomes them multiple times over.

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

The arc/straight isn't a factor at all, no. Common misconception. Feel is subjective for the face material, so get what you like.

Erik, Isn't a heel shafted putter best used with an arc and a center shafter putted straight back and through?

https://www.scottycameron.com/media/8569/scotty-cameron-art-of-putting-and-selection-guide.pdf

Interesting article but it says nothing about center shafted putters.

If you look at the toe flow section the closer the shaft is to the center the less toe flow
and the closer to face balanced the putter becomes. A face balanced putter is for a stroke that is closer to straight back straight thru. Hope that helps.


Tommy, in that section when he refers to “straight shaft” he’s referring to your style of putter.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you look at the toe flow section the closer the shaft is to the center the less toe flow
and the closer to face balanced the putter becomes. A face balanced putter is for a stroke that is closer to straight back straight thru. Hope that helps.

Again that stuff doesn't really matter. Virtually everyone has an arc to their stroke for putts over a few feet, and the forces from a higher "toe hang" or "toe flow" putter are incredibly small. There are guys with strong arcs putting with face-balanced putters, even toe-up putters, and guys with shallow arcs using the same putters, or heel-shafted blades.

Here's a little bit on it, too: https://edel-golf-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/the-myth-of-toe-hang-vs-face-balanced-putting.

Plus, oddly, people often get this stuff backward… a putter with higher toe hang would actually almost want to "close" during the backswing and the toe would tend to hang back during the downswing. People often state the opposite.

As for Scotty, I don't know what to tell you. He will tell you that you MUST putt in an arc because the club (putter) has a lie angle, but that doesn't really make much sense.

[archie_struthers]

 


Yep , golf gods always win. Hit a bunch of greens yesterday and made nothing with a bunch of three putts. Yep, got on my high horse as to my expertise and got b..tch slapped!  no mas

[Rob Marshall]

Tommy,
If you watch the Ping episode of "Swing Expedition" with Chris Como there is an interesting segment that talks about Louie O. using a face balanced putter with an arching stroke to win the British open. It's on Golf Channel on demand.


Many years ago Joey Sindelar's father sold a piece of wood that was straight. It came with a plastic T that you attached to your putter and you stroked it with the T against the wood. Perfect straight back and straight thru. The feel it gave ME was that your left shoulder had to work "down". Felt very manipulated.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Interesting article/video on side saddle.

[Jason Thurman]

My surprising experience with sidesaddle was that it really didn't take long to get very comfortable lag putting. Early on, hitting longer putts without looking at the ball scared me a little. But I got the hang of it pretty quickly. It helps that you really don't need to keep your eyes quite as "fixed," in the sense that I could start my backswing while looking at the hole and then look down at the ball on the thru swing to ensure solid contact while still having a very clear vision of the hole in my mind.


But I struggled a bit on shorter putts. It just felt like my head was too far inside the target line to get really consistently excellent aim. But I also suspect my sidesaddle putter was a little too short for me - I purposely chose one on the short side to make sure it would fit in my flight case...


I abandoned it pretty quickly given my confidence putting conventionally, but I gotta say, I've been shocked that it hasn't proliferated on Tour in the few years since the anchoring ban. Even though I didn't adopt it long-term, I definitely found it to be a valid, easy-to-adopt, and effective way to roll the ball, especially if using a well-fitting putter built for the purpose.

[Jay Mickle]

I play right handed and putt left handed with the same grip. From 20' I am trying to get within a 5' circle from 10' trying to make the putt but not be outside a 1' circle. If I can do that each time I will drop a fair number of putts. Playing the odds and taking a 3 putt out of the equation.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I play right handed and putt left handed with the same grip. From 20' I am trying to get within a 5' circle from 10' trying to make the putt but not be outside a 1' circle. If I can do that each time I will drop a fair number of putts. Playing the odds and taking a 3 putt out of the equation.

Why wouldn't you try to make a twenty-footer?

[David Ober]

I play right handed and putt left handed with the same grip. From 20' I am trying to get within a 5' circle from 10' trying to make the putt but not be outside a 1' circle. If I can do that each time I will drop a fair number of putts. Playing the odds and taking a 3 putt out of the equation.

Why wouldn't you try to make a twenty-footer?

Yup. I hear this from time to time, and it's ridonkulous.


I'm trying to make an 80-footer for crying out loud. It's just that I know I'm probably NOT going to make it. Still, I'm picking a speed and line that I hope results in the ball trickling into the hole from the high side.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I play right handed and putt left handed with the same grip. From 20' I am trying to get within a 5' circle from 10' trying to make the putt but not be outside a 1' circle. If I can do that each time I will drop a fair number of putts. Playing the odds and taking a 3 putt out of the equation.

Why wouldn't you try to make a twenty-footer?

Yup. I hear this from time to time, and it's ridonkulous.


I'm trying to make an 80-footer for crying out loud. It's just that I know I'm probably NOT going to make it. Still, I'm picking a speed and line that I hope results in the ball trickling into the hole from the high side.

If I try to make a twenty-footer I get it closer than I do if I hope for a five foot circle.

[Ken Moum]

Does anyone use different putters on bent and Bermuda?

Not exactly on point but I grew up with a guy (a great player and still the best amateur putter I've ever played with) who used different putters for slow and fast greens (everything was common Bermuda). He putted with an 8802 on fast greens and a Ray Cook mallet on slow--said the RC was more solid and he could make the same stroke as he did on faster greens.


I doubt many instructors would've recommended this but it sure worked for him.

I do the opposite. With pretty damned good results.


The slower the greens, the lighter the putter. But I cannot putt at all with "modern" putters that are ~350 grams.  I putt better with a bellied wedge than I do with them, In fact, if I could consistently hit the belly of the ball on putts outside 10 feet, I might use all the time.


My best, current, fastish green putter is a second- or third-generation Zebra I bought in new condition at a thrift store for $3.50.


But the very best slow green putter I ever used is a 1930s MacGregor Tommy Armour with about 7 degrees of loft.  I don't have it with me in AZ right now, but I'm playing on shaggy just-overseeded greens and plan to take the flanged blade out of my hickory set.

[Ken Moum]

So this thread led me to spend too much time yesterday looking at high end "boutique" putters. I have a Cameron, but it was a gift. Do people think that there really is a big difference in performance by paying upscale?


Ira

Absolutely not.  See my recent post on my "best" putter being a $3.50 thrift store find.


However, being a tinkerer I have experimented enough to know that I need something that has a weight and lie equivalent to wedge.  So I find light putters and bend them about 6* flat.

[Alex Miller]

Interesting thread that shows how much putting keeps variety in the game of golf and always will!


My putting has been the same forever - interlock grip like the rest of my game and a fairly neutral stroke... I'm a good putter and there's not much else to think about. I've used my SC Newport 2 for 10 years and have no plans to get a new one (don't own a second putter either).


Putting is basically 3 things: reading greens, feeling speed, and making a repeatable stroke. I do the first by visualizing the roll of the ball, including speed and pick my starting line from there. This very much involves picking a speed that results in the ball rolling by the hole the amount I feel comfortable with (could be 2 in. or could be 18 in.). For the second, I'll stand behind the ball and make a couple loose practice strokes just to get the feel of how hard I need to hit that putt. The third I guess just happens over time; no reason to do too much if you've got your line and speed figured out.

[Kalen Braley]

Here's one I haven't seen before.  From our own GCA member Steve Scott!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/instruction-with-steve-scott-try-putting-with-the-gator-clamp/ar-BB1awanB?li=BB15ms5q

[Rob Marshall]

I play right handed and putt left handed with the same grip. From 20' I am trying to get within a 5' circle from 10' trying to make the putt but not be outside a 1' circle. If I can do that each time I will drop a fair number of putts. Playing the odds and taking a 3 putt out of the equation.

Why wouldn't you try to make a twenty-footer?

Yup. I hear this from time to time, and it's ridonkulous.


I'm trying to make an 80-footer for crying out loud. It's just that I know I'm probably NOT going to make it. Still, I'm picking a speed and line that I hope results in the ball trickling into the hole from the high side.

If I try to make a twenty-footer I get it closer than I do if I hope for a five foot circle.

I think I have this right from Broadie's book. Putts over 20' you should be trying to die them at the hole. Everything under you should be trying to run it by 1' 6".  That's what I have been trying to do this year. Never leave anything under 20' short.

[Kalen Braley]

As a data point, absent of other stats, I looked at putting from last year on Tour(2020), from various distances.

Length         Putts Made %     3 Putt%
Inside 5'       85.22%               .14%
5 - 10'           53.32%               .48%
10 - 15'         30.06%               .88%
15 - 20'         18.70%               1.25%
20 - 25'         12.55%               2.39%
>25'               5.31%                 9.43% **  This would have been more interesting with intervals like 30-40, 40-50, etc.

Based on that, I'm not seeing anything special for the 20 foot range and 3 putt avoidance, but this is based on Pro putting data.  In general, I don't usually have 3 putt avoidance mentality until its in the 40+ range, or a very tricky downhill putt with lots of break.

P.S.  Brooks K was the "leader" on tour for 3 putts inside 5' (3) and overall from inside 10' (6).  I'm shocked! 

[David_Tepper]

I use a few of the old Ping two-color golf balls when I practice my putting. They make it easy to see if you are getting a good "end over end" roll on your ball. I also use the Pelz putting clips every once in a while. I probably should use them more often.

[David Ober]

I think I have this right from Broadie's book. Putts over 20' you should be trying to die them at the hole. Everything under you should be trying to run it by 1' 6".  That's what I have been trying to do this year. Never leave anything under 20' short.

Yep. For me, it's up to about 30' on "normal" putts. When they get dicey or slick, or with lots of break, then I don't care if I leave one short.


But a standard 30-footer with 2(?) cups of break or less and level(ish) or uphill, I'm very disappointed if I don't get it past the hole. That has been a huge change for me. I've probably hit more putts past the hole in the last two years (since making significant changes in my putting) than I did in the previous 20 years combined. And that's not (much of?) an exaggeration.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm trying to make an 80-footer for crying out loud.

I'd suggest you should be trying to hit the putt 80 feet (not factoring in the distance a ball rolls with the curve/break, of course).

By "trying to make it" from any distance, many will do more to ensure that the putt reaches the hole, which means the center of their distribution shifts beyond the hole. You might make a few more, but you'll three-putt a LOT more from outside 30' when you try to "make" everything.

In other words, I teach my students (outside 25 or 30' especially) to hit the putt "the distance of the hole." Hit a good putt. If your distribution is ± 8 feet from 80 feet (which is pretty darn good), you want that 8' centered on the hole, not three feet past the hole.

[David Ober]

I'm trying to make an 80-footer for crying out loud.

I'd suggest you should be trying to hit the putt 80 feet (not factoring in the distance a ball rolls with the curve/break, of course).

By "trying to make it" from any distance, many will do more to ensure that the putt reaches the hole, which means the center of their distribution shifts beyond the hole. You might make a few more, but you'll three-putt a LOT more from outside 30' when you try to "make" everything.

In other words, I teach my students (outside 25 or 30' especially) to hit the putt "the distance of the hole." Hit a good putt. If your distribution is ± 8 feet from 80 feet (which is pretty darn good), you want that 8' centered on the hole, not three feet past the hole.

If you read my post, you would see that that is exactly what I try to do. :-)