Putting

[Ira Fishman]

So this thread led me to spend too much time yesterday looking at high end "boutique" putters. I have a Cameron, but it was a gift. Do people think that there really is a big difference in performance by paying upscale?


Ira

[David_Tepper]

Ira -

I think getting fitted for a putter (length, lie angle, loft, grip size, etc.) is more important than just paying a lot of money for a high-end putter. A less expensive putter that is fitted to your stroke will likely help you more than an expensive one that is not.

The next question is, how much more will a properly fitted high-end putter help you than a properly fitted less expensive putter? I don't know the answer to that one.  

DT

[Rob Marshall]

Getting fitted is a good place to start. Best thing I ever did for my putting was find a good putting coach. John Graham helped me a ton last year. He is currently working with Justin Thomas among other tour players. He gave me some great drills.

[Kalen Braley]

I used a crap $40 putter my first 12 years of playing golf before finally splurging for an "exotic" 2 ball putter and haven't had the need/desire to change since then...

[A.G._Crockett]

So this thread led me to spend too much time yesterday looking at high end "boutique" putters. I have a Cameron, but it was a gift. Do people think that there really is a big difference in performance by paying upscale?


Ira

Ira, I don't think there is one answer to that.  Back when I putted conventionally, I just LOVED Scotty Cameron putters, but a lot of that was appreciating the craftsmanship and beauty of the product, above and beyond the functional aspects of the putter.  I don't much think that a comparably well-fitted Cameron Newport produces more made putts than a properly fitted Ping Anser2, for instance.
But I think there is also a point at which a cheap putter is going to perform like a cheap putter; the sweet spot won't be where the center line is, the MOI will be lower than it should be, the weighting and balance might not be very good, and so on. 

I'm not sure that we always get what we pay for at the high end in golf equipment, including putters, but I'm much more willing to bet that we get what we pay for at the low end.

[Ira Fishman]

A.G.,


Your post really resonates. I did a full set club fitting last year, but for the putter because I was not keen on spending even more money. But I am quite happy with the clubs (still limited by my mediocre swing) so I am pondering addressing the putter this year.


Thanks,


Ira

[Bernie Bell]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

Anyway having master artisans, deeply rooted in the rich tradition of timeless design, hand craft your putter and wedges, and finish them with custom stamping and paint fill, I mean that obviously has to take one's game to a new level.  Right?

[jeffwarne]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

Anyway having master artisans, deeply rooted in the rich tradition of timeless design, hand craft your putter and wedges, and finish them with custom stamping and paint fill, I mean that obviously has to take one's game to a new level.  Right?

I'm still stunned people play $400 for a putter
especially given that most are copies of a $125 PING


Another thing I really don't understand are the soft, silent inserts.
How do you develop any feel when striking a silent marshmellow?

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

Anyway having master artisans, deeply rooted in the rich tradition of timeless design, hand craft your putter and wedges, and finish them with custom stamping and paint fill, I mean that obviously has to take one's game to a new level.  Right?

I'm still stunned people play $400 for a putter
especially given that most are copies of a $125 PING


Another thing I really don't understand are the soft, silent inserts.
How do you develop any feel when striking a silent marshmellow?

Most players don’t understand that feel comes from sound. The Anser could be the most copied putter of all time. Created in the early 60’s and design is still probably the most popular on tour today.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

My experience shows conclusively that the really good putter is largely born, not made and is inherently endowed with a good eye and a tactile delicacy of grip which are denied the ordinary run of mortals.
WALTER TRAVIS

]Ben Hogan: There is no similarity between golf and putting; they are two different games, one played in the air, and the other on the ground.

I still own a 30+ year old original Ping Zing putter. I  always return to it after all the new putters that I've bought over the years don't work anymore.

[David Ober]

Ah yes, the Juan Putt putter. I have two.

He putted side saddle for a couple of tournaments before the USGA ruled the putter that he was using to be non-conforming, which I knew was likely the case the first day I watched.  What has always bothered me about it was that I felt reasonably certain that he knew as well that he was using a non-conforming putter from the beginning; I think all of us that putt this way know the pertinent equipment rules pretty well because we have to have the putters more or less custom built.  Some of the guys that build them even make available a letter from the USGA stating that their putter has been ruled to be conforming.

The lie angle must be at least 10° from vertical, yeah. Traditional putters are around 70°, but getting close to that 80° limit is good for side saddle putters. What's your putter AG? 80°?

Erik,

Yes, and the fact that you know the 10* rule is what bothered me about BDC.  I guarantee you that he knew it, too, along with the corollary that if the putter is designed so that it can be used vertically, it can be ruled non-conforming and an additional angle of up to 24* (I think) might be required.  When I saw BDC putt with the shaft absolutely vertical but the heel of the putter NOT off the ground, well...

The other thing you want in a side saddle putter is very little loft, usually only a degree or a degree and a half.  Beyond that, it's a matter of preference; getting the length right and figuring out what weight you want.  Besides Bobby Grace, the best side saddle putter is probably the one made by a guy named Juan Elizondo, who teaches out on Tour and has worked with Singh and Simpson, among others.

[David Ober]

My action, such that it is:


https://youtu.be/BDzkDCT2I3s


https://youtu.be/zhY2it0oAXY

[Bernie Bell]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

Anyway having master artisans, deeply rooted in the rich tradition of timeless design, hand craft your putter and wedges, and finish them with custom stamping and paint fill, I mean that obviously has to take one's game to a new level.  Right?

I'm still stunned people play $400 for a putter
especially given that most are copies of a $125 PING


Another thing I really don't understand are the soft, silent inserts.
How do you develop any feel when striking a silent marshmellow?

I could be wrong but pretty sure some of the best putters in the pro game use insert putters, especially Odyssey. 

[Bernie Bell]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

Anyway having master artisans, deeply rooted in the rich tradition of timeless design, hand craft your putter and wedges, and finish them with custom stamping and paint fill, I mean that obviously has to take one's game to a new level.  Right?

I'm still stunned people play $400 for a putter
especially given that most are copies of a $125 PING


Another thing I really don't understand are the soft, silent inserts.
How do you develop any feel when striking a silent marshmellow?

Most players don’t understand that feel comes from sound. The Anser could be the most copied putter of all time. Created in the early 60’s and design is still probably the most popular on tour today.

Isn't feel an individual thing?  Not sure you can generalize from your own experience. 

[Rob Marshall]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

Anyway having master artisans, deeply rooted in the rich tradition of timeless design, hand craft your putter and wedges, and finish them with custom stamping and paint fill, I mean that obviously has to take one's game to a new level.  Right?

I'm still stunned people play $400 for a putter
especially given that most are copies of a $125 PING


Another thing I really don't understand are the soft, silent inserts.
How do you develop any feel when striking a silent marshmellow?

Most players don’t understand that feel comes from sound. The Anser could be the most copied putter of all time. Created in the early 60’s and design is still probably the most popular on tour today.

Isn't feel an individual thing?  Not sure you can generalize from your own experience.

Plug your ears and hit some putts. The "feel" is individual. I think a beached putter feels soft others say it's firmer. However the sound has a big effect on how you perceive the feel.

[A.G._Crockett]

Ah yes, the Juan Putt putter. I have two.

He putted side saddle for a couple of tournaments before the USGA ruled the putter that he was using to be non-conforming, which I knew was likely the case the first day I watched.  What has always bothered me about it was that I felt reasonably certain that he knew as well that he was using a non-conforming putter from the beginning; I think all of us that putt this way know the pertinent equipment rules pretty well because we have to have the putters more or less custom built.  Some of the guys that build them even make available a letter from the USGA stating that their putter has been ruled to be conforming.

The lie angle must be at least 10° from vertical, yeah. Traditional putters are around 70°, but getting close to that 80° limit is good for side saddle putters. What's your putter AG? 80°?

Erik,

Yes, and the fact that you know the 10* rule is what bothered me about BDC.  I guarantee you that he knew it, too, along with the corollary that if the putter is designed so that it can be used vertically, it can be ruled non-conforming and an additional angle of up to 24* (I think) might be required.  When I saw BDC putt with the shaft absolutely vertical but the heel of the putter NOT off the ground, well...

The other thing you want in a side saddle putter is very little loft, usually only a degree or a degree and a half.  Beyond that, it's a matter of preference; getting the length right and figuring out what weight you want.  Besides Bobby Grace, the best side saddle putter is probably the one made by a guy named Juan Elizondo, who teaches out on Tour and has worked with Singh and Simpson, among others.

David,

Just out of curiosity, how do you come to have ANY JuanPutt putters, much less two?  I have two, but it's because I loan one of them out to anybody who is interested in fiddling around with side saddle, so I'm assuming you must have tried it at some point.  But why two?

FWIW, Singh was using a JuanPutt as a broomstick at the SAS Champions Tour event last year; no idea if he still is or not.  And I'll add that Juan Elizondo is a very nice guy and very helpful; when I started down the road with side saddle back in 2015, I emailed him a question; he gave me a phone number and asked me to call him, and we had two pretty detailed conversations about putting in general and side saddle in particular. 

[Steve Lang]

   feel is feel, tactile as mentioned, I don't get the sound off the putter as something to be sought independently, seems ripe for inconsistent results, with wind or other noises in background, let alone scoundrels talking, etc.


Folks spend $400-500 for drivers, so can see why same investment for putters can be easily justified, beyond the fitting exercise... drive for show, putt for dough and all


I moved to my Odyssey putter in '91 from a Ping Anser for both the insert softness and the face balancing, later tweaked loft and lie in a fitting, with back weighting done to get swingwieght where it felt best.  Still feels good...

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sound does make a difference for me, but i like a very soft noise. The Ping sound of my Anser 2 was irritating. The softer sound of my Scotty is perfect.

[Will Lozier]

Left-hand low since 2009 aside from a very brief period where I experimented with a sidesaddle putter. I like a straight-back-straight-through motion but I'm not too technical about it. I'm much more exacting about alignment, posture, and rhythm - left eye right over the ball, toe line pointed dead-parallel to target line, putter swings like a metronome at the same tempo as "Live Forever" regardless of length of putt. I sometimes catch myself audibly clicking out the drum intro between my teeth as I stand over the ball.


I've gone to one of the Superstroke grips and don't envision going back to something smaller. I've used an $80 Cleveland mallet-blade for almost 10 years. It has more than paid for itself, and putting is easily the strongest part of my game day in and day out.


At least on reasonably fast greens...



I played a couple tournaments on slow greens this year, and my putting advantage disappeared in both of them. I will often go right-hand-low and hit sort of a "chip-putt" when I putt from well off the green, and I thought of going to that shot on putts over 20 feet or so on those slow greens. I think it's a lot easier to control speed when you need to put a "hit" on the ball when the dominant hand is low, and I suspect that might be why left-hand-low didn't really become a thing until green speeds consistently started running above 10.

At least you don't OVERthink it!? 

[David Ober]

Ah yes, the Juan Putt putter. I have two.

He putted side saddle for a couple of tournaments before the USGA ruled the putter that he was using to be non-conforming, which I knew was likely the case the first day I watched.  What has always bothered me about it was that I felt reasonably certain that he knew as well that he was using a non-conforming putter from the beginning; I think all of us that putt this way know the pertinent equipment rules pretty well because we have to have the putters more or less custom built.  Some of the guys that build them even make available a letter from the USGA stating that their putter has been ruled to be conforming.

The lie angle must be at least 10° from vertical, yeah. Traditional putters are around 70°, but getting close to that 80° limit is good for side saddle putters. What's your putter AG? 80°?

Erik,

Yes, and the fact that you know the 10* rule is what bothered me about BDC.  I guarantee you that he knew it, too, along with the corollary that if the putter is designed so that it can be used vertically, it can be ruled non-conforming and an additional angle of up to 24* (I think) might be required.  When I saw BDC putt with the shaft absolutely vertical but the heel of the putter NOT off the ground, well...

The other thing you want in a side saddle putter is very little loft, usually only a degree or a degree and a half.  Beyond that, it's a matter of preference; getting the length right and figuring out what weight you want.  Besides Bobby Grace, the best side saddle putter is probably the one made by a guy named Juan Elizondo, who teaches out on Tour and has worked with Singh and Simpson, among others.

David,

Just out of curiosity, how do you come to have ANY JuanPutt putters, much less two?  I have two, but it's because I loan one of them out to anybody who is interested in fiddling around with side saddle, so I'm assuming you must have tried it at some point.  But why two?

FWIW, Singh was using a JuanPutt as a broomstick at the SAS Champions Tour event last year; no idea if he still is or not.  And I'll add that Juan Elizondo is a very nice guy and very helpful; when I started down the road with side saddle back in 2015, I emailed him a question; he gave me a phone number and asked me to call him, and we had two pretty detailed conversations about putting in general and side saddle in particular.

One of Juan's good friends is a member at my former club. He has been full side-saddle for a long time and is an excellent putter. He gave me one that I tried for a while, but it was too short. I tried to putt conventional with it, but didn't care for it. Then I got another, longer one.


Turns out, the reason I got one to begin with and wanted to try side-saddle (the yips), completely went away once I switched to The Claw. I have now been using Mickelson's version of The Claw (with top hand index finger down the shaft for added stabilization) for two years plus with excellent results.

[Bernie Bell]

White Hot XG insert for Phil.  Guess it feels alright to him.

[David Ober]

White Hot XG insert for Phil.  Guess it feels alright to him.

I love insert putters. Prefer them, actually.

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting comments on "Feel" in general,  I wouldn't have thought about it those ways.

For me, I first figure out what the line will be assuming the ball to run a foot past the hole.  Then as I stand over the putt I feel the speed needed to get there...aka how hard to hit the putt.  But its all just intuitive feel, certainly not a BDC type calculation.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Reading greens is an art and the best caddies/putters tend to first walk behind the hole and look at which way its been cut into the turf, it's really a great tool. When doing this you can also get the feel in your feet walking back to the ball. It's also a settling routine that doesn't slow play.

I agree heavily with the latter part there. Use your feet to feel the slopes.

I don't agree much at all with the former part, as few people cut holes perfectly vertically regardless of the slope they're on. Most just set the cutter down and try to make the handle vertical and wiggle/push from there. And even if it was accurate, that's only the slope right at the hole.

The other thing you want in a side saddle putter is very little loft, usually only a degree or a degree and a half.  Beyond that, it's a matter of preference; getting the length right and figuring out what weight you want.  Besides Bobby Grace, the best side saddle putter is probably the one made by a guy named Juan Elizondo, who teaches out on Tour and has worked with Singh and Simpson, among others.

We have a few "Juan Putts" downtown at our indoor academy! 

So this thread led me to spend too much time yesterday looking at high end "boutique" putters. I have a Cameron, but it was a gift. Do people think that there really is a big difference in performance by paying upscale?

Unless the money was spent on the fitting (for aim, weight profile, etc.), no. They're flat pieces of (usually) metal on the end of a stick.

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

The arc/straight isn't a factor at all, no. Common misconception. Feel is subjective for the face material, so get what you like.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Doesn't arc stroke v straight stroke matter a lot in selecting a putter as well? And whether you prefer the feel of milled v insert?

The arc/straight isn't a factor at all, no. Common misconception. Feel is subjective for the face material, so get what you like.

Erik, Isn't a heel shafted putter best used with an arc and a center shafter putted straight back and through?