[Ben Hollerbach]

Can you really consider the 8th at Sweetens a Biarritz green?


If the fundamental element of the green design is how a low running ball interacts with the swale that divides a front a rear raised portion of land I don't see how it fits. With the swale directly in line with play and not perpendicular it seems closer to a double plateau than a biarritz, but even then that's probably a bad comparison.

[Jeff_Brauer]

From my portfolio:


No. 5 at Wilderness at Fortune Bay, Tower, MN
No. 7 at The Wilderness, Lake Jackson, TX
No 17 at Weeks Park Golf Club, Wichita Falls, TX

No. 4 at Sand Creek Station, Newton, KS (sideways)
No. 9 at Lone Oak Golf Club, Lone Oak, TX (most likely NLE)

Jeff quite a healthy portfolio. I saw Weeks Park and was a throwback. I coached football at Midwestern State Univ there in 1997 and played there quite a bit. Sadly don't recall any holes as that was pre GCA enlightenment days where we were looking for a cheap place to golf and have fun.  Fit the bill.

Jeff,


The 17th was part of our comprehensive 2009 remodel.  I actually did some back nine greens in 1985 (my second job on my own!) which were pretty limited in scope and hindered by budget, so you might have seen some of my work then.  By 2009 they decided they really needed to fix drainage, irrigation, full design, etc.


One thing I will never forget about building that one in 2009 was the construction foreman was a good player.  He complained about the hole length.  First off, it was about 290 yards from the back "button" tee just to get scorecard yardage.  It was influenced by the 2008 Oakmont Open, where the 8th played to similar yardage.  Anyway, he said it was between driver and 3 wood for him, and assumed it would be a bad length for easy club selection by everyone.  Of course, he also assumed, as so many good players do, that he ought to be able to hit his standard shot all the way around the course.  There is a Redan there, too, and he of course, hated that one as well.

[Stewart Abramson]

I don't think have been named yet.
Minnesota Valley #11 par 3 (Raynor: recent reno by Bill Bergin)
Great Waters #8 par 3 (Nicklaus)




Minnesota Valley #11 x Biarritz green



Reynolds Great Waters #8  biarritz green

[Stewart Abramson]

...and Cabot Links #2 pr 3 (R Whitman)


River valeCC #2 Par 4 (Orrin Smith)



Cabot Links #2 view from back of Biarritz green two tee shots ended in swale



River Vale CC #2 green The swale is deeper than it appears in this photo

[Wayne_Kozun]

Cabot Links #2 - Par 3 by Rod Whitman 2010
Cabot Cliffs #8 - Par 5 by Coore & Crenshaw 2015

[Tim Martin]

Wexford GC(Hilton Head) 16 is a par four with a wild Biarritz green.

[Scott Sander]

Par 3 #13 at Keene Run, Lexington, Ky.
Keith Foster/Drew Rodgers

[Bill Gayne]

I realize this is a USA centric thread but will ask the question if the 16th at North Berwick should be considered a biarritz?

[Tommy Williamsen]

How deep does the valley have to be to be considered a Biarritz? Some look very shallow.

[Paul Rudovsky]

How deep does the valley have to be to be considered a Biarritz? Some look very shallow.

Tom--Good but I should also point out that I played the Creek about 10 days ago (for the second time) and its valley on #11 is fairly shallow  (relative to places like Yales and Fox Chapel)

[Jeff Schley]

Updated.  Also I'll put just about anything people list here unless we have some strong dissent. Agree some don't have quite the same swale in the middle.

[Bryan Izatt]

Venetian Golf and River Club #11 by Chip Powell about 20 years ago.  The valley is pretty deep. This picture looking back to the tee.




And a 5 foot deep valley.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

No. 6 at Country Club of Charleston is not a Biarritz hole and never was. It is a unique Seth Raynor design, a one level green at the end of a long par-3. The plans for the course and a drawing that was made by a club member and a appeared in a local paper around the time the course opened show a green much the way it is today.


Mountain Lake and Dedham's Biarritz were originally one level greens. In the case of Mountain Lake, a severe ran up to the green but there was not swale. I'm not sure if those should be considered a Biarritz or not. Brian Silva converted Dedham and Mountain Lake to the typical Biarritz design.


At the Apple Nine, part of the Lyman Orchards Complex in Middlefield, Connecticut, there is a Biarritz green on the third hole, a par-3, designed by Mark Mungeam. The course has 7 par-3s and 2 par-4s, including a Short, Punchbowl, and Redan. A ton of fun to play, lots of kids tee it up there. Greens run at about 8 feet.

[Tim Martin]

No. 6 at Country Club of Charleston is not a Biarritz hole and never was. It is a unique Seth Raynor design, a one level green at the end of a long par-3. The plans for the course and a drawing that was made by a club member and a appeared in a local paper around the time the course opened show a green much the way it is today.


Mountain Lake and Dedham's Biarritz were originally one level greens. In the case of Mountain Lake, a severe ran up to the green but there was not swale. I'm not sure if those should be considered a Biarritz or not. Brian Silva converted Dedham and Mountain Lake to the typical Biarritz design.


At the Apple Nine, part of the Lyman Orchards Complex in Middlefield, Connecticut, there is a Biarritz green on the third hole, a par-3, designed by Mark Mungeam. The course has 7 par-3s and 2 par-4s, including a Short, Punchbowl, and Redan. A ton of fun to play, lots of kids tee it up there. Greens run at about 8 feet.

I know that the swale could be considered uninspiring but the name of the hole on the scorecard is Biarritz. I am assuming that Silva didn’t do much to this hole based on your reply.

[Jeff_Brauer]

How deep does the valley have to be to be considered a Biarritz? Some look very shallow.

Good question. IIRC correctly, Valhalla had one with a very shallow swale, shallow enough as to take it out of consideration on my list.  I think there are many out there where the modern gca likes the idea, but softens it in the name of practicality, which also reduces the drama. 


On the other hand, the super at Wilderness at Fortune Bay, so far north the sun angles are low, that the deep swale on the 5th sometimes doesn't de-ice until June, so there is some merit to not going too far.  (Checked the GolfLogix book and it seems to be 3 to 4 feet deep, similar to the Raynor designed one at Forsgate in NJ.

[Sven Nilsen]

On the other hand, the super at Wilderness at Fortune Bay, so far north the sun angles are low, that the deep swale on the 5th sometimes doesn't de-ice until June, so there is some merit to not going too far.  (Checked the GolfLogix book and it seems to be 3 to 4 feet deep, similar to the Raynor designed one at Forsgate in NJ.

Raynor designed Forsgate?

[Bill Brightly]

On the other hand, the super at Wilderness at Fortune Bay, so far north the sun angles are low, that the deep swale on the 5th sometimes doesn't de-ice until June, so there is some merit to not going too far.  (Checked the GolfLogix book and it seems to be 3 to 4 feet deep, similar to the Raynor designed one at Forsgate in NJ.

Raynor designed Forsgate?

Nope, that was Banks.

[Thomas Dai]

9th on the St Olaf at Cruden Bay has been mentioned by others in the past as an example.
Atb

[Tim Gavrich]

FWIW, I think 8 @ Great Waters can probably be removed from the list, as last year's renovation of the course substantially changed the green complex. If anything, it's closer now to a Redan in concept. Definitely no longer a Biarritz.

[Keith Williams]

Highlands Reserve outside of Orlando by Mike Dasher.


Used to be #16, but I think the nines have been reversed, so is now #7.  Short par 4 with an hourglass Biarritz green.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tim: Silva did very little to that hole.


Minnesota Valley was not designed by Seth Raynor. It was designed by W.C. (Bill) Clark and opened in 1924 as the Bloomfield Golf Club.


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[Joe Bausch]

Lakewood CC (Lakewood, NJ):  par 4 3rd.

[Stewart Abramson]

Minnesota Valley was not designed by Seth Raynor. It was designed by W.C. (Bill) Clark and opened in 1924 as the Bloomfield Golf Club.

The members all think it was designed by Raynor. I think Bill Bergin who did the reno alos thinks it is Raynor. This is the first line on their website: "

Experience the difference of Minnesota Valley Country Club. Classically designed by Seth Raynor in 1924,

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[Sven Nilsen]

I think we need to define the term "Biarritz Hole" for this exercise.


If we're talking about original CBM/Raynor/Banks holes or holes inspired by CBM's concept of a Biarritz, then we are only talking about par 3 holes.  And only par 3's of a certain length.


Anything else is just a hole with a green with a swale in it.


Also, Sleepy Hollow is in New York and the Biarritz there was designed by CBM.


Sven

[Stephen Pellegrino]

Ohoopee Match Club #13? If memory serves, it plays as a long par three on the main course and as a drivable par 4 on the Whiskey. Fun either way...

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