NCAA Championships committed to 3-year stints at venues

[Mark Kiely]

Apparently Grayhawk will host the men's and women's NCAA Championships for each of the next three years, followed by the following three years taking up residence at La Costa.


I guess I see some advantages from a set up and relationship perspective, but from a viewer's perspective I'd much rather see it played at a different venue every year. I've really enjoyed getting to see places like Eugene CC and Blessings over the last few years. (I don't recall watching 2014 at Prairie Dunes but that would've been a treat, too.)


Thoughts on these 3-year commitments?

[Ben Hollerbach]

As a player, I think I would hate this.
It would be one thing if there was a historic annual host venue like Omaha for the CWS. Without any deep roots to one tournament site, it would stink to play the same venue 3 of the 4 chances you get to win a NC. If the course really suited you, I'd imagine you'd get over it, but if it wasn't your venue you'd loath having to go back year after year.

[Ronald Montesano]

It's a great idea. Players know what they are facing. Yes, it's a championship, but after year one, you have seen the course. All that can vary is the weather and its impact. As long as the title is still "College Major Title" and not "Any other college event," no one will disparage it.


If the US Open decides to do a three-year residency in Vegas (with Brittney Spears as the opener) as long as it has the title of major championship, no one will care.

[jeffwarne]

It's not a Blessing...

[Matt_Cohn]

It would be one thing if it were a 3-year stay at Prairie Dunes; nobody complains about the Masters being at the same course every year.


Grayhawk and La Costa are nice, although Grayhawk would be nicer if it weren’t in June where it will be 100 every day. But I wouldn’t be excited if I were a player beyond hopefully getting the run of La Costa resort for a few days. It’s surprising.

[Mark Kiely]

Watching this so far, the course seems lacking character compared to the last few NCAAs I recall watching. (And I'm not a Fazio hater, and I love desert golf.) Maybe that's what they want. Just feels very sterile compared to the last few years.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

As far as the weather is concerned at Grayhawk in Scottsdale, bear in mind that it's not 100 all the time. Today's morning temp was in the low 70s and it's about low 90s now at 2pm PDT. It will probably get to  95 or a little bit higher around 5pm. Humidity 5% !

[Phil Burr]

I’ll keep my disdain for desert golf in general and Grayhawk in particular in check.  What disappoints me is my certainty that venues are chosen almost exclusively for the men’s tournament.  Desert golf does not flatter a woman’s game. At least the NCAA lets the women play first, unlike the back-to-back Opens at Pinehurst in 2014 (??) when the women inherited a chewed-up track and empty grandstands that had been built to accommodate the throngs watching the men.  I’d so much prefer to see the NCAA split the men from women and take the women to a classic venue, perhaps one that hosts the Women’s Open or LPGA Championship.  Perhaps best of all, go to The Orchards in South Hadley, MA, a former Women’s Open host AND which is owned by a women’s college.

[Garland Bayley]

... nobody complains about the Masters being at the same course every year.
...

Wrong!

[Jeff Schley]

I watched the coverage yesterday on golf channel of Stanford and their freshman win the title. She had great poise and laid up on 18 from 189 (par 5) up by 1 shot. Also another aspect I didn't know was apparently each competitor represents a fallen US Serviceman/Servicewoman. Never knew that and a great addition as I was wondering why the flags were American Flags for the holes. Kudos to the NCAA Women's Championship for doing this.




In regards to the venue, I too wish it was like the Walker Cup which rotates to iconic venues. Women can utilize Cypress, Merion and other shorter venues that are too short for the men. Would be a nice boost for the clubs to support women's golf tangibly.

[Matt_Cohn]

As far as the weather is concerned at Grayhawk in Scottsdale, bear in mind that it's not 100 all the time. Today's morning temp was in the low 70s and it's about low 90s now at 2pm PDT. It will probably get to  95 or a little bit higher around 5pm. Humidity 5% !

The forecast highs for the men’s championship are between 98° and 103° Every day. The final 2 teams will play 7 straight days of that, walking, including a 36 hole day.

[Tim Martin]

 Perhaps best of all, go to The Orchards in South Hadley, MA, a former Women’s Open host AND which is owned by a women’s college.

That ship has sailed at the Orchards which is now privately owned and operated by CBIGG Management based out of Sugar Land, Texas with a long term lease in place on the land. An oversell by the owners to make it “very private” has detracted from the charm and vibe of the club.

[Matthew Petersen]

I’ll keep my disdain for desert golf in general and Grayhawk in particular in check.  What disappoints me is my certainty that venues are chosen almost exclusively for the men’s tournament.  Desert golf does not flatter a woman’s game. At least the NCAA lets the women play first, unlike the back-to-back Opens at Pinehurst in 2014 (??) when the women inherited a chewed-up track and empty grandstands that had been built to accommodate the throngs watching the men.  I’d so much prefer to see the NCAA split the men from women and take the women to a classic venue, perhaps one that hosts the Women’s Open or LPGA Championship.  Perhaps best of all, go to The Orchards in South Hadley, MA, a former Women’s Open host AND which is owned by a women’s college.

Despite (or perhaps because of) living here for the past two decades, I'm not a big fan of desert golf either. But I have to push back on the notion that desert golf doesn't flatter a woman's game. Perhaps you're referring to amateur players unable to make forced carries over the desert? But these very high level amateur women have no issue at all with this desert course as they, like most high level women players, are some of the most accurate hitters in golf.


A friend and I went out and watched the quarterfinal matches yesterday and saw exactly one person end up in the desert (an offline layup that barely rolled through a bunker into a bush). That's anecdotal and I'm sure some of the high scores that piled up were due to balls in the desert, but Grayhawk is hard in other ways too. The greens are tricky and the bunkers are deep. I saw plenty of people make a mess of the long par 5 4th hole without getting into the desert.


Meanwhile, I'm way more curious as to how the men are going to fare on the course. It's only around 7,200 yards for them, not long at all at par 72. And the course is reasonably wide in most spots, but since they hit it further they can also hit it more offline. My guess is there will be way more men having unplayable desert lies, or shots from the desert, or possibly even lost balls in the desert than we saw with the women.

[David Kelly]

If they were going to be in the desert for 3 years, Desert Forest would have been a nice venue. 

[JohnVDB]

I watched the coverage yesterday on golf channel of Stanford and their freshman win the title. She had great poise and laid up on 18 from 189 (par 5) up by 1 shot. Also another aspect I didn't know was apparently each competitor represents a fallen US Serviceman/Servicewoman. Never knew that and a great addition as I was wondering why the flags were American Flags for the holes. Kudos to the NCAA Women's Championship for doing this.




In regards to the venue, I too wish it was like the Walker Cup which rotates to iconic venues. Women can utilize Cypress, Merion and other shorter venues that are too short for the men. Would be a nice boost for the clubs to support women's golf tangibly.

The flags and representation of the fallen servicemen started with the NCAA men since they play the fourth round on Memorial Day.


In order to get TV to cover this, the cost has to make sense.  Setting up everything for two weeks at the same location cuts costs tremendously,  at least as of a few years ago, the NCAA was basically paying Golf Channel and losing money of this so there couldn’t be any additional costs associated with it.

[jeffwarne]

As a player, I think I would hate this.
It would be one thing if there was a historic annual host venue like Omaha for the CWS. Without any deep roots to one tournament site, it would stink to play the same venue 3 of the 4 chances you get to win a NC. If the course really suited you, I'd imagine you'd get over it, but if it wasn't your venue you'd loath having to go back year after year.

exactly
ICK
There are so many great courses in the US, of great variety and diverse challenge.
To get stuck at one that really doesn't suit one's game or favors another is part of life-if one year.
Three sucks, and based where they've picked lately just uggh

[John Blain]

 Perhaps best of all, go to The Orchards in South Hadley, MA, a former Women’s Open host AND which is owned by a women’s college.

That ship has sailed at the Orchards which is now privately owned and operated by CBIGG Management based out of Sugar Land, Texas with a long term lease in place on the land. An oversell by the owners to make it “very private” has detracted from the charm and vibe of the club.

Tim-
So did Mount Holyoke College actually sell The Orchards to this CBIGG Management group or is it a situation like Taconic where Wllliams College still owns the land where Taconic sits but they have nothing to do with the day-to-day operation of the club? I have only played The Orchards twice and the last time was in 2015 in a USGA Mid Am qualifier. Back then the club was being managed by Billy Casper Golf Management. I loved the layout but the condition was pretty abysmal.
-John

[Mike Nuzzo]

I watched the coverage yesterday on golf channel of Stanford and their freshman win the title. She had great poise and laid up on 18 from 189 (par 5) up by 1 shot. Also another aspect I didn't know was apparently each competitor represents a fallen US Serviceman/Servicewoman. Never knew that and a great addition as I was wondering why the flags were American Flags for the holes. Kudos to the NCAA Women's Championship for doing this.




In regards to the venue, I too wish it was like the Walker Cup which rotates to iconic venues. Women can utilize Cypress, Merion and other shorter venues that are too short for the men. Would be a nice boost for the clubs to support women's golf tangibly.

The flags and representation of the fallen servicemen started with the NCAA men since they play the fourth round on Memorial Day.


In order to get TV to cover this, the cost has to make sense.  Setting up everything for two weeks at the same location cuts costs tremendously,  at least as of a few years ago, the NCAA was basically paying Golf Channel and losing money of this so there couldn’t be any additional costs associated with it.

It isn't clear if the television rights are profitable or not.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/05/21/ncaa-womens-championships-cbs-turner-contract/

[Roman Schwarz]

Watching this so far, the course seems lacking character compared to the last few NCAAs I recall watching. (And I'm not a Fazio hater, and I love desert golf.) Maybe that's what they want. Just feels very sterile compared to the last few years.

I played both courses about 7 years ago and:


-At the time mildly preferred the Talon course, but it wasn't a landslide.
-Watching the TV coverage, I haven't recognized a single hole from memory
-The day I played it, I was playing with some locals, and when I commented which holes I liked the best, they said "those are the ones they're going to bulldoze to put in a hotel." (Note: it appears that it wasn't done specifically for a hotel, but for general development purposes)
-When I travel to the area, Talon is on my "I probably won't play it, but if they send a really good deal to my inbox (happened once), I might squeeze it in with some other rounds."


It's just really hard to have a strong opinion on either course.  I'd never turn down playing a round there if someone wanted to, but 7 years of data has shown I don't seek out playing there, either.  I've also never had a lively discussion with anybody concerning either course, excluding the look people get when I say they bulldozed the best 2 holes to build buildings.

[Matt_Cohn]

-The day I played it, I was playing with some locals, and when I commented which holes I liked the best, they said "those are the ones they're going to bulldoze to put in a hotel." (Note: it appears that it wasn't done specifically for a hotel, but for general development purposes)

Yeah. 15 was a wedge par 4 with a cool green, 16 a mid-length par 3 with a pond, and 17 a relatively long par 4. The finish now is a short par 3, a driveable par 4, and a short par 5. This got me thinking about great courses where the last 3 holes are all amongst the easiest on the course and I couldn't immediately think of one.

[Roman Schwarz]

-The day I played it, I was playing with some locals, and when I commented which holes I liked the best, they said "those are the ones they're going to bulldoze to put in a hotel." (Note: it appears that it wasn't done specifically for a hotel, but for general development purposes)

Yeah. 15 was a wedge par 4 with a cool green, 16 a mid-length par 3 with a pond, and 17 a relatively long par 4. The finish now is a short par 3, a driveable par 4, and a short par 5. This got me thinking about great courses where the last 3 holes are all amongst the easiest on the course and I couldn't immediately think of one.

The more artificial constraints you put in for non-golf reasons, the more the design will suffer.  The common set in modern America would be:
-Par 72 with 2 3's and 2 5's on each 9
-Make each 9 come back to the clubhouse
-Have at least 7000 yards so that it can be called a "championship" course in brochures
-Work around the real estate plan


For whatever reason, in this case, they built the course and then told Fazio "you can't have the land where 15-17 are...rebuild them but you can't change the other 15."  Getting "it's a fine course" out of that feels like a win in hindsight.

[Brad Lawrence]

-The day I played it, I was playing with some locals, and when I commented which holes I liked the best, they said "those are the ones they're going to bulldoze to put in a hotel." (Note: it appears that it wasn't done specifically for a hotel, but for general development purposes)

Yeah. 15 was a wedge par 4 with a cool green, 16 a mid-length par 3 with a pond, and 17 a relatively long par 4. The finish now is a short par 3, a driveable par 4, and a short par 5. This got me thinking about great courses where the last 3 holes are all amongst the easiest on the course and I couldn't immediately think of one.

I’ve never thought of drivable par fours and short par fives as easy holes.  To be competitive, you need to birdie them and it isn’t easy to make a four on an easy par five. I always try to evaluate a hole without factoring par into the equation at all because it really is a meaningless number.

[Matthew Petersen]

-The day I played it, I was playing with some locals, and when I commented which holes I liked the best, they said "those are the ones they're going to bulldoze to put in a hotel." (Note: it appears that it wasn't done specifically for a hotel, but for general development purposes)

Yeah. 15 was a wedge par 4 with a cool green, 16 a mid-length par 3 with a pond, and 17 a relatively long par 4. The finish now is a short par 3, a driveable par 4, and a short par 5. This got me thinking about great courses where the last 3 holes are all amongst the easiest on the course and I couldn't immediately think of one.

17 is an improved hole. They essentially kept the same hole and green but moved the tee up because the green location for 16 was radically changed. The 17th green, which is three tiered and protected by a bunker left, seems much better suited to a short par 4 where someone might be trying to drive it or come in with a wedge. It was an extremely difficult hole to approach with a mid or long iron.


That said, I've never cared for the new 15th or 16th holes at all. The new 15th is a fine enough hole but it's a sad replacement for the original 15th, which was a really nice hole with a semi blind drive and a cool green. The new par 3 16th feels forced and like an afterthought in every way. Even years later now it still doesn't feel like a part of the same course, exposed and without the same landscaping around it even.


It's true that it really changed the character of the finish as well. 16 and 17 were difficult holes before you could get one back at 18. Now you have three short holes to finish the round.

[Pete_Pittock]

Knowing a school would be hosting the NCAA finals for three straight years might have an impact on recruiting. With La Jolla on the not to far horizon I notice both USD and SDSU made this year's field.

[Matt_Cohn]

Knowing a school would be hosting the NCAA finals for three straight years might have an impact on recruiting. With La Jolla on the not to far horizon I notice both USD and SDSU made this year's field.

I wouldn’t think so. La Costa is a 30 mile drive from both campuses, although the NCAA is changing their policy going forward so the host course won’t be off-limits all year.