Surveying the Biarritz Hole

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

If I may surmise the reason for this poll, seems like it circles around:

If one is to build a tough, ball buster par 3 where par is a good or even great score, and if you don't have a bit of land like Cypress Point, what should it be?  12 at Pebble, 16 at Muirfield Village, or perhaps 11 at Torrey Pines South?  Maybe, but seems a Biarritz would at least be more interesting and provide a wider variety of ways to play it.

[David Ober]

it would seem to me that, depending on one's overall golf ability and one's ability to carry the ball certain distances, landing the ball short to a 210 to 240 yard with a back pin location is not just an option, but mandatory for many players ....

[Tim Martin]

Putting aside whether the front portion is maintained as green or not you have to get the back pin for any chance at the shot that skips through the swale. As much as I love Yale I don’t think the back tier pin position is used nearly enough. I’ve heard that it creates a pace of play issue but I would counter that to a front pin someone invariably hits one in Greist pond and then plays from the drop area. I think it’s a wash time wise.

[Bill Brightly]

Here is the fundamental problem that I have with the hole as most are constructed today. If you are long enough to fly it to the back pad but choose instead to hit a low running shot, your misses are in the front bunkers left or right. That leaves a 30-50 yard sand shot, one of the toughest in golf.


As much as I want to play the hole the "right" way, I know that I'm better off missing left or right in the back bunkers where I have a reasonable shot at getting it up and down for par, and making bogey at worst. When I miss in the front bunkers, I have to play really well to save a bogey.


I think the only way the hole works as intended is when the turf is extremely firm and fast and your ball will probably not hold if you fly it to the back pad. Fishers Island comes to mind.


The other problem I have is with those courses that wisely converted the APPROACH to putting surface (to create a fast and firm surface) and then choose to put a pin up there. Talk about bastardizing the architect's intent! So I hate calling the front section part of the putting surface... It is the approach and the hole should never be there and God forbid it be cut in the swale!

[Christian Newton]

1. Three: Old Mac, Cabot Links, Streamsong Red.
2. Almost 20.
3. Always on Old Mac. Not always elsewhere.
4. Probably 7/10 shots worked on Old Mac. The elevation of the tee and my comfort with releasing a ball to run over the green (another way of saying I often can't stop a ball at that distance with firm conditions.) As a mid-index, I find I get better results than better players (less accustomed to links golf) who try and throw a dart.
5. I think it forces fresh thinking, at least the first few times its played, which is a sign of greatness. Cabot Links was less legible to me so I've tended to play it less thoughtfully. The Streamsong version's forced carry makes it less fun at my skill level. (And I would prefer it routed onto Blue!)


Cheers,
Christian

[Jason Topp]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life? Around 8 (these are all approximations)


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot? 50


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back? 40(most exceptions have been when hole is on front portion mowed as green)


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?  Maybe 10?


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole? Depends on the example. 

[Pete_Pittock]

1.  Streamsong-Red, Lookout Mtn, Black Creek, Mid-Ocean, Old Macdonald, Cabot Links, Bandon Trails (5).


2. About 60% on 10 to 12 plays.


3,4  Not long enough to usually have an option


5. Yes, might be more interesting if the feature was at an angle to the line of play.

[Chris_Blakely]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


10


Old White
Yale
The Knoll West
Foresgate Banks
Stonebridge
Mount Prospect
Streamsong Red
Cabot Links
Hunters Oak
Cavalier


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?

20

3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


10


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?

8


Foresgate
Streamsong
Old White
Knoll West
Stonebridge

5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?



I have always like Biarritz holes.  I find the tee shot thrilling, I have always like the raised greens and the bigger the swale the better.


Chris

[James Brown]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?

[/size]Hmmm..
[/color]


Streamsong Red #16
Old Macdonald #8
Piping Rock #9
The Creek #11
Greenbrier #3
Fox Chapel #17




[/size]2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


153.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
3-44.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?


twice.  Both super memorable shots.  One at Streamsong.  One at Old Mac.5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?


Always.  There is something about this type of green that makes me really feel a connection to the history of golf.  It is probably the most relatable template hole.[/color]

[James Reader]

I’m pretty sure the answer for me is that I’ve never played one. 


Are there any at all in GB&I?  No-one has given an example on here yet.  If not, isn’t that strange, given there appear to be so many in the US?  (I hadn’t appreciated before this thread just how many there are)

[Sean_A]

So as not to threadjack the other thread, I will do this separately here.


It's a five question survey.  Feel free to give approximations for your answers:


1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

1. 1

2. 2

3. I was just trying to hit the front of the green in the air. I had no illusions of anything else.

4. 0

5. I didn't think it was a great hole and still don't. I think the concept works far better as a short 4.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Apologies for a maybe slight thread jack but whats it like to maintain one to an appropriate standard, high points, low points, irrigation, drainage and run-off, pitchmarks and all that?
atb

[Bill Brightly]

Apologies for a maybe slight thread jack but whats it like to maintain one to an appropriate standard, high points, low points, irrigation, drainage and run-off, pitchmarks and all that?
atb

That is an excellent question. When we restored our Biarritz (the swale had been mostly filled in...) one of the challenges was to not make the slope so severe that it would be impossible to cut without scalping the crest of the upslope. In my unprofessional opinion, that is why you will never see Yale's swale reproduced.


The front pad does tend to have many un-repaired ballmarks. Especially from cartballers who execute the low running shot, then bring their cart around to the back of the green...

[Kyle Harris]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?
Eleven that I recall off the top of my head. Yale, Old Mac, Greenbrier Old White, Tamarack, Whipoorwill, Streamsong Red, Minnesota Valley, Cabot Links, B Trails Reynolds Great Waters,2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


I'd guess approx 20. Many of the Biarritz holes I've played were on trips where it was my only time playing the hole3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
Less than ten
4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?
The only time I recall was at Whipoorwill, where the ball rolled through the swale and ended up very close to the back hole. At Streamsong Red, the pin was in the swale and my shot landed front and rolled into the swale. 5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?


Don't know what you mean by "still".  I think it's a fun hole. I like the different tee shot options presented depending on whether the hole is on the front tier, in the swale or in the back. You can fly it to the back, land on the front and roll it, or land it short and hop on if  the hole is in front. I also like the challenge of putting from one tier across the swale to the other tier. It's a rush to lag one close and a laugh if you don't quite make it and roll back down the swale. At Rivervale, where I play frequently, #2 is a short par four with a short, blind, downhill approach to a Biarritz green. Unless you can hit a very high spinning approach, everything ends up on the back tier unless you can land it short and hop on. The front tier is too short IMO, but it is a cool approach and provides a lot of fun/tough putts


Streamsong Red #16 from rear of Biarritz green 

I need one hand to count the amount of times we've used that hole location.

[Mark Smolens]

Shoreacres (one round, but twice on Biarritz), Bandon Trails, and Chicago. . . so 3 holes with 4 tee shots. Never to back pin. Like the hole if only for the history.

[Bill Brightly]

Shoreacres (one round, but twice on Biarritz), Bandon Trails, and Chicago. . . so 3 holes with 4 tee shots. Never to back pin. Like the hole if only for the history.

Gotta ask: you played Shoreacres once but the Biarritz twice... Was that some king of playoff/shootout hole or did you sneak on once to play the hole?

[Tim Martin]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


Around 50.

2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


Countless.

3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


Maybe 25.


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?

The only versions that this has worked on, for me, are 5 at Fishers Island, 7 lower at Sleepy Hollow and 8 at Old Macdonald (due to the forward sloping front portion, which I think should be a feature on every modern version of the hole, plus the firm turf, plus the small dip). So in total, it’s probably “worked” half a dozen times when I’ve actually hit the shot correctly (rare).


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

The ones that play property are great holes, in my opinion. The ones that don’t are still great in the classic/historical sense, even if they don’t fit the modern game - a great hole doesn’t become less great for me just because the equipment is different. And I still enjoy playing the ones that don’t play as intended, largely because they look cool, are interesting and have huge greens that allow for some interesting pins, putts and chips.

I don’t think there are more than thirty Golden Age examples. You played twenty or more modern Biarritz holes?

[Colin Sheehan]

 About 13 Raynor/Macdonald/Banks versions. (Yale, Yeamans, Creek, PRC, Mid Ocean, Fox Chapel, Mountain Lake, Chicago Golf, Fishers, Shoreacres, Westhampton, Tamarack, Whippoorwill, plus Streamsong Red, Somerset Hills if they count.

• At least 500 times.
• Maybe 15 to 20 times. Usually at Yale in spring and fall when conditions are firm and wind is helping. And it’s almost always the play on the 27^th hole of the Punchbowl. 
• A few times.
• It’s almost always a better hole when the pin is back and it’s definitely a great hole in New Haven.     

[Mark Smolens]

Shoreacres (one round, but twice on Biarritz), Bandon Trails, and Chicago. . . so 3 holes with 4 tee shots. Never to back pin. Like the hole if only for the history.

Gotta ask: you played Shoreacres once but the Biarritz twice... Was that some king of playoff/shootout hole or did you sneak on once to play the hole?

I got invited to play in an Evans Scholars outing. Shotgun start, and we started on the Biarritz. Since I couldn't go to the dinner that evening, my buddy and I didn't go in after finishing 18, but played on. . . thus, two plays!

[Sven Nilsen]

Seeing Bandon Trails mentioned makes me wonder if all of the holes people are including are actually "Biarritz Holes."


There is no Biarritz Hole at Trails, although there is a green with a swale in it.  But at 140 yards from the back tees it is not a Biarritz Hole.


One could argue that the Biarritz Hole at Old MacDonald is often set up at a yardage that plays too short to meet the parameters of the hole outlined by MacDonald. 


There are no par 4's or par 5's that are Biarritz Holes.  The length of the hole is one of the major key components of the concept.

[Tim Martin]

About 13 Raynor/Macdonald/Banks versions. (Yale, Yeamans, Creek, PRC, Mid Ocean, Fox Chapel, Mountain Lake, Chicago Golf, Fishers, Shoreacres, Westhampton, Tamarack, Whippoorwill, plus Streamsong Red, Somerset Hills if they count.

• At least 500 times.
• Maybe 15 to 20 times. Usually at Yale in spring and fall when conditions are firm and wind is helping. And it’s almost always the play on the 27^th hole of the Punchbowl. 
• A few times.
• It’s almost always a better hole when the pin is back and it’s definitely a great hole in New Haven.     

Colin-I think you can add Dedham Polo Club, Francis Byrne GC, Montclair GC, Hackensack CC, Northshore CC and CC of Charleston.

[George Smiltins]

1.  Mid-Ocean and Shoreacres




2.  2




3.  2




4.  0 (pull left, push right)




5.  Yes, I think it would be an amazing hole to have at your home club (and certainly for a rare encounter with one in your travels). It's a good one hole analogy for the game of golf. Something you can take 500 swings at and only perfect a handful of times (with perfection being executing the shot as desired and giving yourself a good birdie try on the proper level). Maybe it gets a little easier to pull off if you've played the hole dozens of times and don't psych yourself out thinking this is your only crack at it.

[Ben Sims]

So as not to threadjack the other thread, I will do this separately here.


It's a five question survey.  Feel free to give approximations for your answers:


1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

1) Five


2) perhaps a dozen


3) ~75% (only times I didn’t were when it was pinned in front)


4) three maybe?


5) the Biarritz is looks great on paper and in photographs. As a golf hole it’s lacking, particularly when the front is mowed as green. My opinion is that the most enjoyable version is slightly downhill with the area in front of the swale mowed as fairway. Perhaps I’m an outlier, but the Yale version remains my least favorite. And I parred it!

[Bret Lawrence]

1.) I have played about 12-15 versions of a Biarritz with a back pin position.


2.). I have hit the tee shot close to 50 times.


3.). I have tried to land it on the front pad about 75% of the time.


4.) I have only accomplished the shot successfully once at Yale and once at Fishers Island.  Although I have seen the shot successfully executed on several other occasions at Yale with playing partners shots.  I can also imagine it would be pretty easy to execute on the very modern, subtle interpretations that have been restored such as Westhampton, Greenbrier, Whippoorwill. 


5.). I don’t think all Biarritz were created equal.  Some versions are great while others fall into the ‘worthwhile’ category.  I think the Biarritz at Yale and Fishers Island are great examples of the hole.  I think the setting for these holes along with the deeper swales and more rugged contours set these two holes apart from some of the other examples.  Many of the restored versions of the hole are very standardized, where the Biarritz looks very similar from course to course with extremely smooth transitions and even pinnable swales. I feel like the architects original intent has been ignored when you stick a pin in the front pad at 160 yards.  It’s hard to test a 220 yard long, straight shot when the pin is only 160 yards away.


I liked the modern versions of the hole at Black Creek and Streamsong Red.  The hole at Streamsong Red has many qualities similar to Yale’s 9th.  Both of these holes I think you could pull off the classic Biarritz shot through the trench. 


I don’t know if the hole or concept is great, but I am always excited to play the hole again.  I have seen the ball do some very interesting things on the 9th hole at Yale that I don’t see on other holes or courses. There are many other ways to make 2’s, 3’s and 4’s on the 9th at Yale, so making the tee shot is only half the battle of the hole.  There are 100 ways to play it correctly and 1000’s of ways to play it incorrectly. What’s not to love about that?

[Tim Gavrich]

So as not to threadjack the other thread, I will do this separately here.


It's a five question survey.  Feel free to give approximations for your answers:


1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

1. 10:


Yale 9
Mountain Lake 5
PGA National Champ 7 (kinda)
Streamsong Red 16
Links at Perry Cabin 6
Sweetgrass 12
Hackensack 3
Shelter Harbor 4
Greenbrier Old White 3
Mid Ocean 13


2. 15ish


3. Not as many as I'd like because I seem to get a lot of front pins when I get to play a Biarritz. But the only one where I didn't do it and didn't feel it was even an option was at Mid Ocean, due to the elevation


4. I've done it successfully at Mountain Lake, Streamsong Red (just a couple weeks ago, actually; it was a top golf thrill of the last few years to pull it off and then can the birdie putt)...think I just ran it through the back edge at Hackensack.


5. Sure - I love the aesthetic formality and the audacity of the traditional versions of it, but it actually seems pretty adaptable and able to be changed up in interesting ways by latter-day architects. You can do more with a long green with a trench across it than just Macdonald, Raynor and Banks did, IMO. The gathering back-right slope at Streamsong Red 16 is a great example of a twist that (IMO) does not destroy the essential Biarritziness.