Surveying the Biarritz Hole

[Tom_Doak]

So as not to threadjack the other thread, I will do this separately here.


It's a five question survey.  Feel free to give approximations for your answers:


1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

[Carl Rogers]

1. Lookout Mt. Hole 4
     Old Mac Hole 8


2. Only twice


3. Only twice


4. None


5.  I think it is a hard as hell hole.  Great???

[Kyle Harris]

So as not to threadjack the other thread, I will do this separately here.


It's a five question survey.  Feel free to give approximations for your answers:


1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

1. 5? Maybe 6?
2. Countless, but I help maintain one.
3. On the one I play most frequently this is all I try to do when the hole is located on the back portion.
4. Many. It works on Streamsong Red #16. I don't think I've ever pulled it off elsewhere.
5. It's never been "great" to me. In fact, of all the version I've played it's not my favorite Par-3 on either course. In order for a template to be considered "great" I may offer the criteria that it is the best of it's par-type on some course, some where.

[Jason Thurman]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


I think 6.


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


9?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?

Only the first time or two. Once I flew it to the back pad at Black Creek from the back tees with a driver and stopped it there, I decided the run-up is fun but not the right play for me. At least for another year or two.

4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?

I've never pulled off the run through the swale. Maybe on a pitch shot after missing the green... but I can't actually think of one.

5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?


It's fine. I like long par 3s in general. But I think the Biarritz is a pretty one-dimensional long par 3 - penal side-bunkering with a low-key easy-to-putt green if you hit it, since both plateaus tend to be pretty flat in my experience. I like virtually every Langford Monster Par 3 better than any Biarritz, for example.


I always thought Wolf Run had a lot of holes inspired by templates. Some were pretty obvious - the Leven first, the punchbowl/alpsy 4th, the Redan 6th. But I kinda always thought of 13 as a pseudo Biarritz, reoriented a bit. A ball that landed just left of the green would dip out of view and then pop back up, rolling across the surface. But more importantly, in my mind, there was a chasm to clear! It was polarizing, but it always made me wonder whether the wrong portion of the Biarritz hole became the template. That swaled and laterally-bunkered green is a little one-dimensional to me, but the carry over a chasm is always a little jolt of adrenaline. Although admittedly still pretty penal.

[Jon Cavalier]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?


Around 50.

2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


Countless.

3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?


Maybe 25.


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?

The only versions that this has worked on, for me, are 5 at Fishers Island, 7 lower at Sleepy Hollow and 8 at Old Macdonald (due to the forward sloping front portion, which I think should be a feature on every modern version of the hole, plus the firm turf, plus the small dip). So in total, it’s probably “worked” half a dozen times when I’ve actually hit the shot correctly (rare).


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

The ones that play property are great holes, in my opinion. The ones that don’t are still great in the classic/historical sense, even if they don’t fit the modern game - a great hole doesn’t become less great for me just because the equipment is different. And I still enjoy playing the ones that don’t play as intended, largely because they look cool, are interesting and have huge greens that allow for some interesting pins, putts and chips.

[Ted Sturges]

1.  I think 13


2.  200+ (most of them at Yeamans Hall Club)


3.  Only 7-8 times have I tried this, and I think those were all at Shoreacres (where the front pad is putting green).


4.  2 or 3


5.  Yes!  The best ones in my humble opinion are at Fishers Island, Yale, and Old MacDonald

[Peter Flory]

- Old Mac, Streamsong Red, Fox Chapel, Shoreacres, Chicago GC, and Bluemound
- Maybe 20 times played overall
- I don't think that I've ever tried to land a shot on the front pad to get to the back. Have tried to land it in the valley many times, especially to try to get it to stop for a front pin on the back plateau.  Based on my memory, the one at Streamsong worked the best- mainly due to the firm turf conditions and the length. 
- N/A.  On landing it in the valley, it is a crapshoot.  I can remember having just about every outcome- chases through as expected, chases too far, hits the upslope and comes back, etc. 
- I still think that it is a great dynamic and it makes you at least think a bit.

It might be a really good thing to try on a drivable par 4 now.  For big hitters, it would play very similarly to how the Biarritz's played in the late teens and a driver would chase even on courses that weren't perfectly F&F. 

I guess that I'm really not crazy about how standardized so many of the Biarritz versions are with the bunkering.  To me, that is the part that isn't essential to the core dynamic of the swale.  The 5 bunker versions seem too formulaic.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm pretty sure this was directed at me, so i'll chime in and keep the playing details brief.

1 hole, 2 tee shots, both times tried the low run in approach...and neither one worked out cause I'm a high capper, so no surprise there.

However, when I said on the other thread "I think its great", i meant that in the context of say meeting a new gal for the first time, having a nice conversation,  and them commenting to a friend later, "yea I thought she was great".  I can't say if the Biarritz is a great hole or template...but compared to other difficult long par 3s and how they're often set up, it sure was a helluva lot more interesting.  I'm pretty sure I would enjoy playing them a lot more, even knowing they would kill me, as opposed to other difficult long par 3s.

[Peter Pallotta]

1 hole played.

1 tee shot hit.

1 attempt at hitting a lower trajectory draw running up to the back pin.

0 success in getting it there, as I pulled it left and short.

It's a Par 3, how great can it be? But a) it was enjoyable to stand on the tee and, with good reason/cause, feel called to try something other than a stock shot, and b) the green itself did make the recovery-chip more interesting and challenging.

[Ben Hollerbach]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life? 1, Lookout Mountain

2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot? 3 times

3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back? 3 times

4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked? 2 times
All 3 times I've played the course has been with hickories. I've played this hole with either a mid-iron(3) or mashie-iron(4), with both clubs the shots were flighted down and intended to land short with low spin. The one time I was unsuccessful my ball ran through the green to the back fringe.

5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?
Playing with hickories, the hole is still completely valid and very fun to play. For modern equipment it is probably a little less so. For todays play I'd think that the hole should play at least 220-230 yards, possibly going up to 260 yards. This may also require a little wider green, I feel you need someone really trying to stretch out a shot to land it short and run it through. the hole needs to require a low lofted hybrid or fairway wood approach to feel as its suppose to. In that context is could be a great hole, but too many players dislike the challenge of the mighty par 3 and would be upset having to hit a difficult approach into a strange green.

[Ira Fishman]

1. 4 that I can remember.


2. 7 or 8.


3/4. I am trying to hit the ball straight with some reasonable shot of hitting the green.


5. As an individual hole, yes. Yale's is great. Streamsong Red very good. As a hole that deserves Template/Replication, probably not although certainly not objectionable to me.


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?
Ten

2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?
Dozens

3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
Dozens

4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?
I don’t succeed very often.
My favorite ones are at:
Piping Rock
Fox Chapel
Yeamans Hall
Somerset (MN)
Hunter’s Oak on Eastern Shore of MD (by the infamous Ian Scott-Taylor)

5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?
The first few times I played a Biarritz, I thought it was fun. After it lost its uniqueness and I tired of it. So no, I don’t think it is still a great hole. It is too dependent on the firmness of the green. I wouldn’t, however, recommend any course to change it or how it is maintained. I know that periodically courses will keep the front of the green at fairway height. On new courses it should be used sparingly. People that know nothing about the style of the hole will not understand it at all.

[Pete Lavallee]

1. How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?
Black Creek (1)
LookoutMountain (1)
Yale (1)
Old Mac (3)
2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?
6 times.
3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
None, they were all within the range of an iron shot. If the hole played 230 I might have tried to rail a driver to the back portion.
 4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?
N/A
5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?
I was very impressed with the depth of the swale at Black Creek and Yale; I think they are definitely great.


Report

[Matt Kardash]

So as not to threadjack the other thread, I will do this separately here.


It's a five question survey.  Feel free to give approximations for your answers:


1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life? Only 1, the 2nd at Cabot Links


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot? Once


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back? I tried landing on the front because the pin was on the front. The ball landed on the front but ended up on the back. I played from the back tee. 247 yards into the wind with a 2 iron.


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked? I guess I accidentally succeeded on my one and only attempt.


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole? The 2nd at Cabot is not a great hole, but an enjoyable enough long par 3 on flat terrain. The par 3's at Cabot are probably the weak link of the course.

[Drew Groeger]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?
3


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?
10-12?


3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
Each and every time!


4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?
Maybe once? I have landed it past the front pad. It was at Mt. Prospect and if I recall correctly, it didn't turn out so well.


5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?
I do. I will say this: playing with non-GCA friends, when we get to the Biarritz hole, their initial reaction is usually "WTF?". But it's also the one (or more!) putt of the round they remember. "The putt I had on that par 3 was insane! What's it called again?"

[Pat Burke]

Tom
If we are still saying number 4 (tournament rotation) at Wailea was a Biarritz when I played in the 90’s
I probably played that hole  30+ times


For me, as someone who loved playing in the wind and flighting shots, I hit a good number of shots that I hit “down” and ran back to the back hole locations.  At least five but less than 10. Almost all were wind induced decisions (into a pretty good wind )


I DID hit a lot of low flight shots into the center planning on a skip up to the top ideally.


But even back then, I probably move the ball around a lot more than the majority of players


I don’t recall trying to fly it to the top of a back location ever, long was a terrible spot for me

[MLevesque]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?  Two (Yale & Old Macdonald)2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot? 50+3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
Zero (sadly, the pin on the 9th hole at Yale is rarely on the back pad, and when it is, I fly a hyred to the back pin position.)4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  N/a. On which versions of the hole has it worked?5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?  The Biarritz is still a brilliant hole design with a back pin.  That said, today's  technology (club and ball) has significant neutered the intent of the design.  [/size][/font]

[Carl Nichols]

1. Six
2. Approximately 30
3. Zero
4. Zero
5. Yes

[David Ober]

Only par 4 and par 5 Biarritz holes for me. I love the Biarritz concept, both from a playability viewpoint, and an aesthetic one.

[Nigel Islam]

1. 21
2. Same
3. I pretty much tried every time except for Yale and their love for the front pin.
4. I pretty much failed every time. Maybe pulled it off at Whipoorwill. I’ve been in the swale a lot which isn’t always bad.
5. I don’t necessarily think it’s a great hole, but done in a MacRayBanks way it’s extraordinarily pretty.

[Michael Wolf]

1) 26 if I counted correctly


2) 200


3) Maybe 100 attempts. Courses where I would almost always try it are Chicago, Fishers, Ohoopee, Piping Rock, ShoreAcres, Westhampton and Southhampton. Courses where I'd never try it - Mid Ocean, Yeamons, Blue Mound (all too soft in front) and The Creek (just trying to keep tee shot dry)


4) Probably 10 successes out of 100 attempts to run balls in - skewed by being 0 for maybe 40 lifetime at Camargo. I know for sure I've also succeeded at Fishers, Ohoopee, Black Creek, Piping Rock, and Chicago. Plus one memorable day at Fox Chapel when all 4 members of my mid handicap foursome successfully ran their shots through the swale and stopped within 10ft of the hole. 


5) My favorite biarritz today is the new one at Ohoopee. From the back tee its a perfect driver for me, with a green scale to match. I wish more of the older examples played longer and had even more dramatic greens. Otherwise, I prefer when biarritz's play 180ish. That's about as far as I can still reasonable control the trajectory on a hooded 6 or 7 iron. When a biarritz is 195-220 yards to the pin I'm better off just trying to carry it all the way with my 5 iron, since I don't have a low running (deliberate) shot that goes that distance.


Michael

[Peter Gannon]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?
7
2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?
12 times3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
6 times4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?Maybe twice.  If it's over 210 yds, the 3 wood rolls out.  The 5 wood and 3 iron don't run out enough.
5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?
Visually, psychologically, and historically, I'm excited to play a Biarritz. 

[Bill Brightly]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?

11

Fishers Island, Yale, The Creek, Fox Chapel, Tamarack, Forsgate, Hackensack Streamsong Red, Essex County, Old Macdonald, and The Knoll.


2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?

1,500

3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?

Only about 5

4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?

Zero

5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?

I do not think it is a great hole. I think it is TOUGH hole, a potentially fun hole, especially for seniors who need to hit the front pad.


Sadly, I think the hole's core design concept has been wiped away by technology.

[Tim Martin]

1. 23 on a quick count
2. Between 300 and 400 times
3. 30ish
4. A handful of times that I remember at Yale.(usually got the front pin)  
4a. Had a few more that got to the back tier with a hooking shot that bounced initially to the right of green and moved left.
5. The hole is a vestige of the Golden Age and I appreciate it for its uniqueness. Some of the versions I have played are “great” but not all.

[Stewart Abramson]

1.  How many different par-3 Biarritz holes have you played in your life?
Eleven that I recall off the top of my head. Yale, Old Mac, Greenbrier Old White, Tamarack, Whipoorwill, Streamsong Red, Minnesota Valley, Cabot Links, B Trails Reynolds Great Waters,[/size]2.  How many total times have you hit the tee shot?


I'd guess approx 20. Many of the Biarritz holes I've played were on trips where it was my only time playing the hole3.  How many times have you tried to land the ball on the front pad and run it to the back?
Less than ten
4.  How many times have you succeeded in doing so?  On which versions of the hole has it worked?
The only time I recall was at Whipoorwill, where the ball rolled through the swale and ended up very close to the back hole. At Streamsong Red, the pin was in the swale and my shot landed front and rolled into the swale. 5.  Do you still think it's a great hole?


Don't know what you mean by "still".  I think it's a fun hole. I like the different tee shot options presented depending on whether the hole is on the front tier, in the swale or in the back. You can fly it to the back, land on the front and roll it, or land it short and hop on if  the hole is in front. I also like the challenge of putting from one tier across the swale to the other tier. It's a rush to lag one close and a laugh if you don't quite make it and roll back down the swale. At Rivervale, where I play frequently, #2 is a short par four with a short, blind, downhill approach to a Biarritz green. Unless you can hit a very high spinning approach, everything ends up on the back tier unless you can land it short and hop on. The front tier is too short IMO, but it is a cool approach and provides a lot of fun/tough putts


Streamsong Red #16 from rear of Biarritz green  [/size]