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MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
I Had A Dream
« on: October 14, 2020, 10:03:08 AM »
Actually, I did have a dream last night.   In it, I was playing golf with Tom Paul and Joe Bausch on what I think was supposed to be the original nine holes at Myopia Hunt Club which had never been expanded, but in reality it could be any number of cool, ancient nine hole courses built along the rocky coast of New England in the late 1890s, early 1900s.

In the dream, the scorecard had something (paraphrasing) written on it that I found remarkable and thought-provoking, that I then read to Tom for his reaction.   In essence, I read; "Men gathered here during summers in the 1890s, and one of them who shall go unnamed built this course.   It matters not "who", but the focus should be on "what" he designed for the enjoyment of others past and present.  The natural and artificial features he used to provide challenge remain much the same for you today as experienced by those men back then.   Please just accept and savor things as you find them, unhampered by the limitations or the abilities of their supposed creator."

We then got into a discussion whether knowing the architect of any golf course jaundices one's ultimate reaction, either favorably or otherwise.   If we were to wipe the slate clean from everything we've learned about the architectural evolution of every course in the world over the past decades and instead be presented with each course as we first discover it, without understanding of past architectural lineage, or tournament history, but simply as a golf course in a place in time, how would that change our own belief systems and would we even care about something like "greatness" in a relative world?

I'd be curious to hear from others.   Do you think that your opinion of any particular golf course is changed for better or worse by knowing the architect who built it?   Answering for myself, I think it would be less than honest to simply answer "no" without further examination.   As someone who has spent countless hours during my life researching the architectural origins of courses great and small I found this an odd, unexpected realization.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 10:24:49 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2020, 10:36:13 AM »
Over the last thirty-five years I have played 25-40 new (to me) courses a year. Sometimes I will go on the club's website and check out each hole. Sometimes I go in blind. For me, the more I can learn about the course the better. I like knowing the architect or the person that did a renovation or restoration. I can miss too much on a first time play.
I played Hidden Creek the year it opened, so I went in blind. The pin on the par three fourth was in the front. I completely missed the fact that it was a redan. I didn't discover that until last year when the pin was back left and my wife played it perfectly.
On the other hand, sometimes I like being surprised. I played Sand Hollow in Utah last year on a whim. I knew about the cliffside holes but was completely unprepared for how good the rest of the course was. I wish I had known more about the course before I played it.
I like knowing who designed the course and what I should look for. I can discover the rest by myself, hopefully. Does it prejudice me one way or the other? I'm not sure to be honest.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2020, 10:49:10 AM »
Of course what you know going in influences your opinion on the way out.


I regularly lament that there's no real way to do a "blind taste test" on a golf course in the #WokeGolf era. Scroll through the Whip It Out thread. You'll see a lot more similarities in how people rank courses than differences, and almost no real outliers. Do you really think the answers are just that objectively obvious to everybody? I don't. I think we go in knowing the "right answers" and then look to confirm.


It's boring as hell, honestly.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2020, 11:01:10 AM »
Mike, of course.  My tendency is to be disappointed in the courses of big name architects, assuming they had the budget and client, etc. to turn out not only their consistently good projects, but perhaps an even better one if its new.  My expectations tend to be high.


And, I have been very pleasantly surprised by many courses by lesser known architects, mainly because my expectations were much lower.


It was sort of like that when Star Wars came out.  Not being a space movie fan, I expected nothing and was blown away.  The sequel disappointed because I was expecting so much, and I never watched another one of the what 8, 9 that eventually came out?  In some ways, that is true of various architects, too.  For both signature and other gca's sometimes playing one of their courses is great, but I guess playing the second I have pulled back the curtain so to speak, and find them less exciting.  As in, "OK, they like to do this a lot." 


I guess that's because I don't think there is any one signature feature, be it wide or narrow fw, contoured or subtle greens, large or small greens, lots of sand or little, etc. that is so good, its worth doing  almost 18 times on one golf course, much less on multiple courses repeatedly.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2020, 11:03:11 AM »
Helluva a dream and interesting question. If I already have a view of an architect based on playing other of his courses, then yes. I like Ross courses so that generally affects my view of the next one I play. However, expectations can be defeated--I wanted to like Grove Park Inn but did not particularly.


If I have never played a course by an architect before, I think I am pretty open minded. Pasatiempo was the first MacKenzie course I had played (unless Lahinch counts), and I pretty confident that my favorable view was not influenced although that much by its lineage.


Similarly, there have been courses designed by a "famous" architect that I played without knowing the architect until later. I played Bryn Mawr dozens of times before I knew it is a Langford. Learning that fact did not raise my opinion of the course. I had no idea who MacDonald and Raynor were when I played Yale and loved it. I do think my favorable view influenced my view of Old White when I played it years later.


Ira

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2020, 01:43:53 PM »
Wow Mike.
First.. I think the architect only matters to the business of golf, not to the enjoyment of golf.
A club can market their designer or a client will hire based on past or future work of an architect.


More importantly.... How often is golf in your dreams?
Was this a lucid dream - were you controlling the outcome?
My understanding and experience is that it is very hard to read in dreams - or to visualize text anyway - how the words jumped from the scorecard to your brain may not have been through your dream eyes.


Lastly
How is Tom Paul?


:)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2020, 01:50:19 PM »
Wow Mike.
First.. I think the architect only matters to the business of golf, not to the enjoyment of golf.
A club can market their designer or a client will hire based on past or future work of an architect.

More importantly.... How often is golf in your dreams?
Was this a lucid dream - were you controlling the outcome?
My understanding and experience is that it is very hard to read in dreams - or to visualize text anyway - how the words jumped from the scorecard to your brain may not have been through your dream eyes.

Lastly
How is Tom Paul?

 :)


That's kind of what I was thinking.  I mean its not like it was just a quick motto or something, it was a full on paragraph. 

Cirba, you aren't embellishing are you??  ;D

P.S.  My golf dreams usually suck where I finally score that invite to Pine Valley, but then after a few holes I'm not even on the golf course anymore and playing down some back alley or something.  Doh!

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2020, 01:59:12 PM »
Mike lay off the cheap scotch?
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2020, 02:08:06 PM »
Perhaps the conscious mind could not suppress a nagging subconscious heretical doubt that "greatness" matters?  On the question of preconceived notions and confirmation bias, let's see how the first Fazio/Davis design is received.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2020, 02:23:56 PM »
Man, tough crew here.   ;)

I was as surprised as anyone to read that message on the scorecard.   At that time we were well out on the golf course yet I don't recall hitting any shots.   I woke from the dream about 3:30am and lay there processing it for about the next hour or so, and decided to post it here.   As far as Tom Paul, I need to give him a call.

Usually my golf dreams are something like Kalen's, and I posted previously about them.   There is often something making it impossible for me to make a swing...something behind me, no discernible target, etc., and his experience of going from Pine Valley to some alleyway sounds familiar.   I've come to the conclusion that I most often have this dream when I've been unable to play for longer than my subconscious mind can stand, and the frustration comes out in the dream.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2020, 02:45:56 PM »
Mike,

We're just funning you, if you woke up and wrote it down that's the best way to remember details.  I did it once for a college class project, but don't think i'll be sharing those dreams here. ;)

I think the hypothetical is interesting, even if near impossible for this group.  I can't recall the last time I played a new course and didn't know who designed it and at least a few details about the course. I try to be as objective as possible, but i know deep down i'm probably very biased...

But I do think its possible people like this could be found.  For example a few times I've had convo's with work associates or paired up with an unknown group at the local muni and on occasion, Bandon comes up. Many have claimed to have played there or really want to go and when I ask stuff like "What did you think about Tom Doak's course?", without exception, I get blank stares followed by a "who"?  Perhaps some methodology/test could be devised for the masses who don't care a lick about those details..

Peter Pallotta

Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 05:07:38 PM »
Mike -
a phrase you used in the first post reminded me immediately of William Blake's famous line: "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite".
But maybe the analogy is almost too on-the-nose to be useful for discussion purposes here.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 06:42:18 PM »
 8) Better call Brad Klein, he's having dreams too...


https://kleincoronadiary.com/2020/10/12/dreams/


have you washed your mask lately?





Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 07:34:00 PM »
Mike -
a phrase you used in the first post reminded me immediately of William Blake's famous line: "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite".
But maybe the analogy is almost too on-the-nose to be useful for discussion purposes here.


Exactly.   Wow.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 08:42:03 PM »
Mike,


 I thought you were going to say that your dream for Cobbs came true.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2020, 08:54:11 PM »
Of course what you know going in influences your opinion on the way out.


I regularly lament that there's no real way to do a "blind taste test" on a golf course in the #WokeGolf era. Scroll through the Whip It Out thread. You'll see a lot more similarities in how people rank courses than differences, and almost no real outliers. Do you really think the answers are just that objectively obvious to everybody? I don't. I think we go in knowing the "right answers" and then look to confirm.


It's boring as hell, honestly.


This is pretty much exactly what I was going to post.


Once upon a time I used to long for the blind taste test to level the playing field; now I wish nobody knew the course was mine so I'd get honest feedback instead of boring, typecast responses.  I could swear I'm not doing the same things I did ten or twenty years ago, but very few people seem to notice any difference.


I try not to pre-judge when I go out of my way to see something new, either, but it's very hard because in most cases you have a pretty good idea of what to expect.  It's boring as hell, frankly.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2020, 01:19:58 AM »
Having a good idea of what to expect is a symptom of experience. I don't see how not knowing the archie makes much difference. The reality is tons of golf holes are indifferent or in no way special. The hope is new play courses either have a few really cool holes and/or an undeniable charm, either of which turns on your lights. If greatness is the measure of acceptability then you have built a difficult road to pleasure.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2020, 05:45:11 AM »
Conversely in this admittedly Utopian dream, what would architects design and build if freed from their clients and customers expectations, conventions, and limitations?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2020, 07:24:07 AM »
Of course what you know going in influences your opinion on the way out.


I regularly lament that there's no real way to do a "blind taste test" on a golf course in the #WokeGolf era. Scroll through the Whip It Out thread. You'll see a lot more similarities in how people rank courses than differences, and almost no real outliers. Do you really think the answers are just that objectively obvious to everybody? I don't. I think we go in knowing the "right answers" and then look to confirm.

It's boring as hell, honestly.


Ih they're Doaks or C&Cs, its probably ennui, not mere boredom.   ;)

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2020, 08:52:24 AM »
Some architecture makes you want to stick a hot needle ennui.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 06:16:42 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2020, 10:44:42 AM »
Here's my take.   I had wanted to play Lulu for quite some time, but the logistics didn't work out.    We ended up playing it after the clubhouse burned down and they had to change the routing.


I studied it ahead of time, and loved the Ross aspect, and how much of the course was very much "old school".


I absolutely loved it.   Loved its quirks and its design.


Laura, my wife, has become a bit of a GCA snob (and I think she's proud of it).   I didn't tell her anything about Lulu before we played other than I heard it was a "cool" old design.   Guess what - she hated it.


Makes me wonder if my own perception was biased by the history of Lulu, and my love of most Ross designs. 


And, yes, I still love the golf course, but won't be going back because Laura really disliked it :)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2020, 12:09:56 PM »
The hope is new play courses either have a few really cool holes and/or an undeniable charm, either of which turns on your lights. If greatness is the measure of acceptability then you have built a difficult road to pleasure.

Ciao


Worthy of a thread itself.
I think of Dunfanaghy with 6-7 great holes and the subtle allure of the appetizers leading up to and in between.
If the gold standard is 18 great holes, I'm guessing perfect often becomes the enemy of good.
(With exceptions such as NGLA-though for years many found fault in some of their opening holes)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2020, 03:52:42 AM »
Having a good idea of what to expect is a symptom of experience. I don't see how not knowing the archie makes much difference.


Sean:


I saw five courses for the first time this week:


Landmand GC (King/Collins)
Caprock GC (Hanse)
The Prairie C Dunes (Lehman, with shapers who were former interns of mine)
The Prairie C Pines (Graham Marsh)
Frederick Peak (Lehman)


The first three, knowing who the architect and shapers were, I had a pretty good idea what to expect going in.  The last two, I knew much less about, and those two were the most fun for me to see because they had some unexpected stuff that was really good. They weren't necessarily as good as the first three from 1-18 (Frederick Peak is ten holes for now), but if you took off the names and reputations and Twitter followers, the perceptions might be entirely different.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2020, 07:03:25 AM »
Having a good idea of what to expect is a symptom of experience. I don't see how not knowing the archie makes much difference.

Sean:

I saw five courses for the first time this week:

Landmand GC (King/Collins)
Caprock GC (Hanse)
The Prairie C Dunes (Lehman, with shapers who were former interns of mine)
The Prairie C Pines (Graham Marsh)
Frederick Peak (Lehman)

The first three, knowing who the architect and shapers were, I had a pretty good idea what to expect going in.  The last two, I knew much less about, and those two were the most fun for me to see because they had some unexpected stuff that was really good. They weren't necessarily as good as the first three from 1-18 (Frederick Peak is ten holes for now), but if you took off the names and reputations and Twitter followers, the perceptions might be entirely different.

Tom

I guess I'm not overly fussed about who the archie is until after I play. Of course I am attracted to designers, especially Fowler, Colt, Ross and Simpson, but so many of the courses I play are the result of a mish mash of input. I am often not overly confident of design history.

The shapers are a different matter. I usually don't dig into that sort of thing. But I do understand your PoV because I have come to recognize the work of Franks Harris Bros under Colt.

I spose the main reason I like playing odd little courses is I don't know what to expect. Plus, I am cheap and object to paying high green fees 😎. That said, I am considering going back to Muirfield because so many smart folks say its a top notch course. There's a trick, trying to forget negative opinions for a replay.

Ciao

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I Had A Dream
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2020, 07:40:39 AM »
 8)


As to GCA >"The emperor often has no clothes" and we're not talking Naccarato


but it's different than twenty five years ago when it was in full thrush

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