[Mark_Fine]

With a back tee slope of 113?  I don’t think so 😊. 


What’s the cutoff to get in?

[Adam Uttley]

No.


I was trying to imagine the scenario that this could happen. Given what slope represents - the difficulty of a course for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer - I think it would have to be extremely contrived or dull to hit the 113. As most raters will be somewhat better than a bogey golfer, this compounds the problem.


I’m imagining a shortish course with little trouble until the 250-300 area and then open entrances to greens.


I think it would be easier to make a Top 100 course with a Course Rating = Par off the back tees.

[John Kavanaugh]

If a celebrity billionaire hired him to build an uber exclusive course on the ocean it would be top 100 even with the slope of a salt flat. Rumor pushes ratings further than results.

[Jeff_Brauer]

JK,


If that were true, then every project TD has ever drawn up would be top 100.


My guess is no to the 113 postulation.  For most of the magazine ratings, they include challenge or some variation of that in the criteria, and a course with below the national slope average would certainly lose too many points.


I bet when he sees this, he will start brainstorming how it might be done, though.

[James Reader]

Which current “top 100” courses has the lowest slope rating?  Are there any that are close to 113?

[Mark_Fine]

He couldn't do it and he also knows why     The real question is how low a slope (which is another way of saying how little challenge) can a course have and still be considered one of the best in the world? 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’m ignorant on what a slope rating of 113 actually means...


But would short Top-100 courses like Swinley Forest or West Sussex come close?

[Mark_Fine]

Ally,
The slope rating for those courses is much higher than 113.  Think of the 113 rating as a bit more than a bunny slope 

[Andrew Harvie]

I always had great admiration for golf courses that had high ratings and low slopes, but I think this would be pretty tough. I'll never say never, though! Would love to see it!

[Kyle Harris]

I’m ignorant on what a slope rating of 113 actually means...


But would short Top-100 courses like Swinley Forest or West Sussex come close?

113 is the slope of a course where the difference between a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer is 18 strokes.


A handicap index is the best 10 of the 20 handicap differentials which is determined by:


((Score - Course Rating)*Slope)/113

[Mark Pearce]

Ally,
The slope rating for those courses is much higher than 113.  Think of the 113 rating as a bit more than a bunny slope 

Elie has a slope of 113.  If that's how a bunny slope plays, give me more.

[John Emerson]

What is the difference in 113 slope and 120 slope?  Is that HUGE and significant jump?  Kilspindie is 113 and It can beat the breaks off of you if you let it.  I could play that course every day for the rest of my life and never get bored of it.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - nothing more than a hunch/instinct:

Can it be done once? Can Tom D design & build a Top 100 course with a 113 slope? Yes.

Can it be replicated? Can he or another architect design & build a second such course? No.

As per an ancient Hindu philosophy: "To your labour you have a right, not to the fruits of your labour".

Which is to say: the actual design is based on skill and talent and imagination and commitment, which can be harnessed, internally; but the Top 100 rating is matter of public opinion, externally, and can't be controlled.

[Mark_Fine]

Mark,
I am looking at my scorecard from when I last played Elie and I don't see a 113 slope?  The par is 70 and so is the SSS so I highly doubt it would have a 113 slope rating.  It sure wouldn't over here.  Regardless, you guys all get my point - it would be very difficult to design what most of us would consider a world class golf course that has very little challenge.  By definition, 113 golf courses (at least over here) are considered, how should I say, very average 


Let's be clear, 113 slope courses have most all of the hazards out of the way, the greens are very benign, the teeing yardages are short, the risk/rewards are minimal if any, there are zero to few forced carries, - in a nut shell they are pretty bland.  This is what makes them 113 and I am talking about from the back tees so there will be even less interest and challenge from the shorter tees.  Bottomline, even the great Tom Doak couldn't pull this off, sorry 

[Jeff Schley]

I don't think you could build a regulation course at 113 and be ranked in the top 200 personally. You need some hazards and if you don't have then what do you have? Even Kankakee Elks is 119 from the white tees with only 6 or so bunkers at probably 6200-6300 yards.

[Joe Zucker]

Would there ever be anything closer than the new Sheep Ranch?  From the gold tees it has a slope of 111 with yardage of 5,810.  I assume it will surely be in the next top 100 list and has to have the lowest slope pretty easily.  Gong one tee back to the greens the slope is 119.  It has no bunkers, but obviously has the hazard of the Pacific and wind.


https://www.bandondunesgolf.com/golf/golf-courses/sheep-ranch

[Ira Fishman]

First of all, 113 is not the average slope. It was mathematical correlation to the handicap system. Knuth says that the average in the US is around 120.


Second, there are plenty of great courses that do not have particularly high slope ratings. Thumbing through some scorecards in my shoebox:


PH2–126 from the regular tees; 133 from the blues.
Waterville—134 from the whites.
North Berwick—130 from the back.
Royal Dornoch—134 from the regular;136 from the back.
Brora—120 from the back.
TOC—132
Mid Pines—128; 130.
Streamsong Blue—130; 134


And a 130 does not mean that it is 10 shots more difficult for a bogey golfer than the average 120.


So yes, I think Doak could design a top tier course with an average slope.


Btw, I read somewhere that Swinley Forest is a 113 on some attempt to assign slopes to UK courses.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
There are many great courses with a set of tees that yields a slope rating below 113 or 120 (I won’t argue with you on what is average) but they ALL have higher course and slope ratings from longer/other sets of tees.  I am talking about a course where the highest degree of challenge is 113 (or 120 so not to disagree with you).  Show me one course like that which is universally regarded as one of the top 100 courses in the world. 

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


My point is that there is not a Kantian truth that only courses difficult for the average player can be Top 100. 136 from the back tees at Royal Dornoch is not particularly daunting in terms of slope nor is 134 from the back tees at Streamsong Blue. PH2 is 133 from the furthest tees available for regular play. And difficult to argue that NB is not a Top 50 course at 130.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
So is 130 the cutoff?  I am arguing it is not 113 😊.  There is not a single 113 rated golf course out there that even this GCA passioned group would rate in the Top 100.  If you disagree, please tell me one that is?  And don’t suggest the ones that are above that 

[Ira Fishman]

What I have stated quite clearly is that Doak (and other talented architects) could design a Top 100 course that is of average difficulty for the average golfer.

I also have stated quite clearly that the developer of the Slope Rating system does not find 113 a relevant number in the real world of gca.

Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
Of course he could design a course that is Top 100 and of average difficulty for the average golfer.  He has done it many times.  But ALL those courses also have tees that provide much greater challenge and interest with slope ratings well above 113!  The question I am asking is could he build one that is universally considered Top 100 (even by this GCA group) that only has a maximum slope rating (degree of difficulty) of around 113?  I say NO.


Another example - Pinehurst #2 has a very short set of tees (the shortest I believe you can play for the men) that is about 5200 yards long and has a slope rating of 117.  If that was the longest set of tees on the golf course, would #2 still be considered at Top 100 design?  Before you jump to a conclusion think about it. 


I think Tom Doak already has a definition for a 5200 yard slope 117 course like that - he would call it a 4 on the Doak scale 


Definition of a Doak 4 - "Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers." 


Doak 4's don't make Top 100 lists 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Let's be clear, 113 slope courses have most all of the hazards out of the way, the greens are very benign, the teeing yardages are short, the risk/rewards are minimal if any, there are zero to few forced carries, - in a nut shell they are pretty bland.  This is what makes them 113 and I am talking about from the back tees so there will be even less interest and challenge from the shorter tees.  Bottomline, even the great Tom Doak couldn't pull this off, sorry 

Those facts may be true of the typical 113 sloped course, but it doesn't mean every 113 sloped course is similar. How much are the hazards in the way at the Sheep Ranch? When weighing the severity of greens my recollection is that shaping has little impact on the obstacle factor, the size and proximity of bunkers has a much larger impact. So very well sculpted greens without surrounding hazards would have little impact on increasing the slope. The yardage impacts the rating not the slope. I think Wolf Point would have a low slope rating, unfortunately I never rated it, I'd probably be biased.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
I don't know how Wolf Point would be rated but my guess is much higher than 113 from the back tees.  As Tom points out in his 0-10 scale, a great course does have to present some level of challenge to an accomplished golfer to be considered one of the best.  If he designed a course with a maximum 113 slope, I don't think it would meet his criteria for greatness or make most anyone's Top 100 list.  It still might be fun to play - one of my favorite courses to play is a par three chip and putt course but it isn't going to make my best courses in the world list.  Just wondering what that threshold of challenge is to be considered one of the best?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike,
I don't know how Wolf Point would be rated but my guess is much higher than 113 from the back tees.  As Tom points out in his 0-10 scale, a great course does have to present some level of challenge to an accomplished golfer to be considered one of the best.  If he designed a course with a maximum 113 slope, I don't think it would meet his criteria for greatness or make most anyone's Top 100 list.  It still might be fun to play - one of my favorite courses to play is a par three chip and putt course but it isn't going to make my best courses in the world list.  Just wondering what that threshold of challenge is to be considered one of the best?

I responded to your analysis of the make up of slope and where you are likely mistaken and how the slope rating can miss or underscore greatness. How do tees/yardages matter for slope? And there are not really tees at Wolf Point. What would impact the slope rating at Wolf Point to make it high? A player can't miss a fairway, very few of the greens are surrounded by hazards, the severity of the slopes on and around the greens have little impact on the slope rating (the USGA doesn't really consider Siltwell type greens - i.e. there is no score of 11[Spinal Tap])... What is the slope of the Sheep Ranch? I just checked... slope is 111 from the gold tees.
Is the Sheep Ranch a great course from the Gold tees?
From the back tees Pacific Dunes slope rating is 142
From the back tees Sheep Ranch slope rating is 122
(my understanding for why the slope would be different from different yardages is because slope accounts for the target size of where the bogey player lands their ball. If the bogey player starts from a different tee they will likely have a different target size and obstacle values.)
Slope does not measure greatness.
All of the above is why I could care less about slope and didn't bother to rate Wolf Point - Al liked it no matter what the slope.

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