News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« on: October 07, 2020, 09:38:25 AM »
I have played all of the New England public courses that are traditionally considered "the best." Taconic. Newport National. Red Tail. Belgrade. Waverley Oaks. Sugarloaf.

Somehow, Wachusett remained off my radar. I think I assumed it was private, maybe confusing it for Worcester CC over the years. Or maybe I've just been a dope.

Anyway, I played it yesterday. Donald Ross course that looks and plays exactly like you would think a Donald Ross course would look and play. Great routing on what seems like a relatively small property. Incredible greensites. Great bunkering. A few holes that are reminiscent of other Ross holes (11 and 12 are eerily similar to 3 and 4 at Concord CC). Great use of the terrain and elevation changes.

I came away thinking it might very well be the most fun public course in New England. And at a fraction of the cost of a place like Belgrade or Taconic. Also, the conditioning was exceptional. During a summer of no rain, when most courses are burnt to a crisp, Wachusett was green and lush, with putting surfaces that are the best I've seen this year.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2020, 12:18:51 PM »
Gesundheit!   :D


Seriously, just added it to my day trip list based on your recommendation, Dan.   Thanks for letting us know.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2020, 12:34:26 PM »
I had never heard of it before.  And, yes, having "Country Club" in the name does make it an undercover public course.


The aerial photo looks good but not unusual.  It must rely a lot on those good greens.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2020, 02:35:36 PM »
The greens are fantastic. But it’s also got some great rolling fairways. I thought it was at least as good as, if not better than, Longmeadow. As good as or better than the Orchards. Maybe getting too excited, but honestly I thought it was as good as Concord.


It also has the unusual feature of ending with a par 3. And it’s a hole with one of my favorite design details: from the tee, the bunker on the left looks like it’s even with the green. When you get closer to the hole, you realize it’s about 30 yards short of the green. Awesome optical illusion, and I love it when architects are able to pull that off successfully.

Cal Seifert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2020, 02:51:01 PM »
Is Cape Arundel considered public? Cannot imagine the greens are better than those. 

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2020, 11:07:02 AM »
"Best Public in New England" is an interesting discussion, given that the marketeers would have you focus on any of the newfangled (not golden age) courses like the ones Dan mentioned, Lake of Isles, The Ranch, Pinehills, etc.


I would agree that the Golden-Age courses are still the best experiences. 


Wachusett is pretty darn good, and gives a good approximation of the second tier of the great private courses in Mass and New England.  I've played it a couple times, but not in the last 10 years.


I'd say that Taconic is better than Wachusett, but obviously quite a bit pricier, and at times not very public either.  I'd also say there are similar-quality publics in New England to Wachusett, but on a given day WCC could give any of them a run for their money.


Here are a few that could compete:  Rutland CC, Penobscot Valley, Kebo Valley, George Wright in a bit better shape but it's close, Shennecossett (probably on the low end of these), CC of Greenfield.  Any others?
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 12:09:01 PM »
"Best Public in New England" is an interesting discussion, given that the marketeers would have you focus on any of the newfangled (not golden age) courses like the ones Dan mentioned, Lake of Isles, The Ranch, Pinehills, etc.


I would agree that the Golden-Age courses are still the best experiences. 


Wachusett is pretty darn good, and gives a good approximation of the second tier of the great private courses in Mass and New England.  I've played it a couple times, but not in the last 10 years.


I'd say that Taconic is better than Wachusett, but obviously quite a bit pricier, and at times not very public either.  I'd also say there are similar-quality publics in New England to Wachusett, but on a given day WCC could give any of them a run for their money.


Here are a few that could compete:  Rutland CC, Penobscot Valley, Kebo Valley, George Wright in a bit better shape but it's close, Shennecossett (probably on the low end of these), CC of Greenfield.  Any others?


I’m a fan of CC of Greenfield. There are a lot of solid holes with some wild landforms. Of note the bunkerless 3rd, the par five 14th and the uphill par 3 15th with the double lions mouth bunkers. You can see Raynor’s influence on Barton’s work.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2020, 12:35:35 PM »
CC of Greenfield was one of my surprises a handful of years ago...railroad crossings, rock outcroppings, an old house-like clubhouse, small greens...it was really cool!


That one is a microcosm of how my GCA education has bettered over the years...in my early 20s I might have driven out there from the North Shore for Crumpin-Fox, but now I'd do so for CCG and skip the former. 


I'm glad I also got to play Toytown Tavern/Winchendon School in that area before it closed...surely a Ross mail-in that had been changed many times, but fun to see nonetheless.  I actually had a business meeting in the old clubhouse there, which is now the school administration building...there are still metal spike marks all over the wood-floor porch!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2020, 02:26:59 PM »
"Best Public in New England" is an interesting discussion, given that the marketeers would have you focus on any of the newfangled (not golden age) courses like the ones Dan mentioned, Lake of Isles, The Ranch, Pinehills, etc.

I would agree that the Golden-Age courses are still the best experiences. 

Wachusett is pretty darn good, and gives a good approximation of the second tier of the great private courses in Mass and New England.  I've played it a couple times, but not in the last 10 years.

I'd say that Taconic is better than Wachusett, but obviously quite a bit pricier, and at times not very public either.  I'd also say there are similar-quality publics in New England to Wachusett, but on a given day WCC could give any of them a run for their money.

Here are a few that could compete:  Rutland CC, Penobscot Valley, Kebo Valley, George Wright in a bit better shape but it's close, Shennecossett (probably on the low end of these), CC of Greenfield.  Any others?

I agree completely. And that's not to say I don't enjoy the newer "country club for a day" courses. I would never turn down a round at Belgrade or the others. But there is something so natural and intimate about Wachusett, and I have to say I've felt similarly at other Ross courses, particularly Longmeadow. And with so many of his courses, the greens are sited so perfectly, once you play a given hole you can't imagine the green being placed anywhere else.

Is Taconic better? It certainly feel bigger and more important. Since the restoration, I would say it probably is. But as you said, it's only sort of public, and it is exceedingly expensive. If George Wright was in better shape, I would probably put it ahead of Wachusett, but ... it isn't. In terms of bang for your buck, I'm starting to convince myself that Wachusett is the best public option in New England.

As for the comparison made earlier to Cape Arundel, I would say the greens are apples and oranges. Wachusett greens are subtle and often elevated. Arundel's are wild and fun with all the slopes and mounds. Arundel's greens are in a class by themselves, I think. Wachusett is more challenging off the tee, without being overly tight.

And thinking more about the design ... Wachusett's 8th green reminded me of the green on the 1st hole at Yale, which is tiered from left to right, rather than back to front. It's a feature I'd like to see on more courses. I think it's the 16th ... the approach shot is similar to the approach at Yale #10 ... totally blind it's so uphill. And like #10, if you go past the flag, you can't stop your putt coming back. And a number of greens have subtle pockets that fall away and funnel balls off the green. So that a seemingly straightforward approach rolls off the green if you are at all careless.

It's just a very fun course. Forgiving enough that you probably aren't going to lose any balls. But as with many par 70 Ross courses where the yardage (6,500+ in this case) doesn't seem like much, he sprinkles in enough stout par 4s that you really do end up hitting every club in your bag.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 02:57:37 PM by Dan_Callahan »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2020, 03:13:41 PM »
Just a quick reminder that Connecticut is also in New England!  ;D


Hard to believe there's a better combo of value and classic architecture in New England than Keney Park. Wachusett looks pretty solid but can it carry Keney's sneakers?


Shennecossett's wonderful as well, and Manchester CC is some light architectural attention away from being a serious contender.


CT National is modern in age, but it feels very nicely lived-in thanks to Mark Mungeam's redesign work there several years ago.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2020, 03:23:44 PM »
Hi Tim,

I lived in CT for about 10 years. Obviously, ranking courses is all about personal preference. I really like all the courses you mention. I like Wachusett better than Shenny. I haven't played CT National since its redesign. And I haven't played Keney since it had all that work done. But when I did play it probably 10 years ago it was in awful shape. I would probably put it in the same context as George Wright. Great potential, but like many munis, the billions of rounds and small maintenance budgets start to show. But yes, I think Keney is in the conversation too, and a course not many people north of CT know about.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 03:25:58 PM by Dan_Callahan »

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2020, 03:47:22 PM »
I will add that I wrote the subject line as a question because it honestly is just that. I don't know if it's the best public course in New England. But the fact that I've lived in New England for the majority of my life, have played what I thought were all the top public layouts, have written about many of them over the years, yet was completely oblivious to Wachusett struck me as sort of shocking. And so at a bare minimum, the course is the poster child for the concept of a hidden gem. And I'm not even one of those Boston area people who never ventures west of 495. Hell, I lived out in Williamstown for a few years. And in Suffield CT, which is just south of Springfield. I've even played courses in and around Worcester (most notably, the abysmal Cyprian Keyes). And somehow knew nothing about Wachusett.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2020, 01:22:02 AM »
I played the course over 20 years ago when visiting in laws and looking for a Ross course open to the public reasonably close to  Lexington.   I have very good memories of the place although little memory of details. 

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2020, 08:44:05 AM »
Best Public course in New England is very subjective as I dont think any are a clear cut favorite over others. I LOVE Taconic and if Dan says Wachusett is right there with it for the title, then I need to see it.


The other (besides Taconic) that needs to be discussed is Newport National. Soo much great stuff going on there.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2020, 09:11:29 AM »
Best Public course in New England is very subjective as I dont think any are a clear cut favorite over others. I LOVE Taconic and if Dan says Wachusett is right there with it for the title, then I need to see it.

The other (besides Taconic) that needs to be discussed is Newport National. Soo much great stuff going on there.


I agree on both counts. Newport is a fantastic course. But it also has a big, modern feel to it. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) In fact, I'll bet you could take anyone who appreciates GCA and has never seen either course, bring them to both, and they would be able to say with 99% certainty which was built 100 years ago and which was built within the last 20 years. Again, not to say one type is better than the other. But I'm trying to think of any course I've played that was built in the last 20-30 years that could be confused for a Donald Ross course in its brilliant routing and use of the land and perfectly natural green sites. I honestly can't think of any.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2020, 09:47:48 AM »
Good stuff guys.  I think Keney Park definitely belongs in the discussion, and it may be #1 when it comes to value.  I'm glad I stopped in there a couple Falls ago, as it was even better than my high expectations!


I have yet to play CT National or Manchester.  Wintonbury is totally cool too, also a good value play.


Longmeadow is similar to Concord in that they are renovated, maximized, and tough.  They are great courses, it just sometimes makes me wonder if they were that unforgiving on day 1 back in the 20s (if that is the ideal resto point).


Newport National is pretty neat, it was my "itching to play in March" course close-ish to Boston that always opened early.  It was not necessarily planned this way, but I like the bare-bones operation...it feels traditional and fits the area.



So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2020, 10:12:55 AM »

Longmeadow is similar to Concord in that they are renovated, maximized, and tough.  They are great courses, it just sometimes makes me wonder if they were that unforgiving on day 1 back in the 20s (if that is the ideal resto point).



The 4th hole at Concord is one of my favorite par 4s that isn't on a coast. And the 5th is significantly better after they took out all the trees on the right. But man ... that 2nd hole leaves a bad taste in my mouth every time I play it. That's one hole where I might punt on the whole minimalist thing and instead bring in some heavy equipment to level out that fairway. When the course is dry, it is literally impossible to keep your tee shot from rolling into the right rough.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2020, 10:42:40 AM »
Yeah the second hole is the toughest hole on the course, but at least the approach area is forgiving for a run-up.  I'm not long enough to challenge the dip in the fairway on the right so I tend to go left and just have 200-215 into the green.  I seem to have issues on #3 as well, as I'm not quite long enough to reach the top of the hill unless the tee is at least one block up.  They have now cleared a huge area right of 3 tee/behind 16 green for some sort of irrigation pond or something....enough space to build a par three.


Alas, maybe I need to Bryson-up!
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2020, 02:27:38 PM »
Sankaty Head has some tee times set aside in October and November for outside play. I don’t know if that policy has changed this year but if it hasn’t it has to be at or near the top.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2020, 02:56:41 PM »

Have played the public courses noted with the exception of Taconic and Wachusett. Last week played keney Park for the first time,and commented to folks we were playing with, that it is one of the top public courses in New England.


My top five would be:

Newport National


George Wright (Assuming a bit of upgrading)


Keney Park


Red Tail


The Ranch


If privates that allow outside play are included,  clearly Cape Arundel and and Rutland would be on the list.


I did not include Hooper because it is nine holes.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2020, 07:50:37 AM »
Tim Martin affection aside, "some tee times in the droopy shoulder season" doesn't qualify a course as public for me. If you disagree, see the recent article on "Is Pebble really public" on one of the big-magazine sites.


How does Wachusett compare with Waubeeka (the poor man's Taconic) in Williamstown? Before we elevate it to "Best Of" consideration, we should consider how it beats the other almosts in greater New England.


What about Richter Park in CT? I haven't played it, but it's not as farmore or beyonder as its neighbor across the pond.


Kebo is wonderful, but they say that Travis' gem in Kennebunkport is better.


I'm a low-key fan of Webhannet and Putterham Meadows, but that might just be the years between the recollections of a 16-year old.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2020, 09:43:21 AM »
Waubeeka? Richter Park? Putterham?


That’s an interesting list. I was once a member of Waubeeka and enjoyed playing it. Wachusett is significantly better.


Richter Park ... I’m not a big fan, but admittedly it’s been many years since I last played it.


And Putterham is maybe the wettest course I’ve ever played. Even in a drought, it seems to be soggy. Putterham has a few holes that could be good if it wasn’t in such awful shape. Similar to Ponky in that respect. Neither come close to George Wright, and I think Wachusett is better than George Wright (with the caveat that if GW was maintained better I think it could challenge for the best course in state, including privates. I love GW.)

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2020, 06:33:23 PM »
Tim Martin affection aside, "some tee times in the droopy shoulder season" doesn't qualify a course as public for me. If you disagree, see the recent article on "Is Pebble really public" on one of the big-magazine sites.


How does Wachusett compare with Waubeeka (the poor man's Taconic) in Williamstown? Before we elevate it to "Best Of" consideration, we should consider how it beats the other almosts in greater New England.


What about Richter Park in CT? I haven't played it, but it's not as farmore or beyonder as its neighbor across the pond.


Kebo is wonderful, but they say that Travis' gem in Kennebunkport is better.


I'm a low-key fan of Webhannet and Putterham Meadows, but that might just be the years between the recollections of a 16-year old.


RoMo-Even in a parallel universe you can’t put Waubeeka in the same conversation as Taconic. I’ll take Taconic, Cape Arundel and Wintonbury Hills.

Paul Ashton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Wachusett the best public course in New England?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2020, 02:55:18 PM »
Played Sunday thanks to this thread.  It was fantastic, especially the last 11 holes.  No golf here in Maryland can compare at $45 to walk on a Sunday.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back