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Anthony Fowler

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Bryson’s win at Winged Foot is accelerating the discussions we’ve been having for years on GCA about how—in light of longer, stronger players—we can preserve our classic courses and prevent competitive golf from being too one-dimensional.

Although it’s truly impressive (even mind-boggling) what Bryson, Wolff, Koepka, DJ, Rory, etc. can do with a driver, competitive golf is more interesting when players like Zach Johnson, Padraig Harrington, Jordon Spieth, etc. can also win majors because of their exceptional short games and shotmaking abilities. And most importantly, we don’t want to see the best courses in the world unnecessarily altered so they can host a 4-day tournament once every 10-15 years.

Many solutions have been discussed. The most common one is to roll back the golf ball, although it’s unclear how exactly we roll it back, and it raises complicated questions about whether the rules will be bifurcated, where and how they will be bifurcated, will it hurt equipment manufacturers (who may lobby to prevent a rollback and/or bifurcation), will it harm recreational golfers who enjoy using the same equipment as the pros, etc. Another problem with rolling back the ball is that it doesn’t necessarily take away the advantage of power or make the game more multidimensional. If Bryson goes from hitting lob wedge to pitching wedge and Zach Johnson goes from hitting 7 iron to hitting 4 iron, whose score is likely to suffer more?

Another proposal is to ban the tee, at least for elite competitions. I like this idea for its simplicity and ease of enforcement, although as with the rollback, it doesn’t necessarily mitigate the advantages of power.

A suggestion that I really like for other reasons (cost of clubs, weight of the golf bag, promoting walking) is to reduce the maximum number of clubs. But this will only exacerbate the advantage of the long-hitters. Jim Furyk really benefits from having 14 clubs, whereas Bryson can play almost as well with a driver, a few wedges, and a putter.

The other way to try to change the competitive game is to trick up the courses. We could design courses (and bring more high-level competitions to courses) with water in front of the greens, fairways that end at a certain point, etc. I hope we can all agree this is a terrible solution that detracts from strategy and harms the mission of GCA.

So here, I’d like to discuss a very simple solution that doesn’t require any changes to equipment, doesn’t require any permanent change to courses, and allows GCA to shine. What if, for high-level competitions, we have graduated rough that gets longer and thicker as you get further from the tee and closer to the green? Supposed a missed fairway with a 250-yard tee shot is a modest penalty, but a missed fairway with a 350-yard tee shot is a very severe penalty. This significantly alters the calculus for the long player off the tee. To play well, the long hitters will either have to play strategically and hit the right clubs to the right spots off the tee, or they will have to hit fairways with those long drives, at which point they deserve the reward they get.

This is such a simple solution that I’m sure it’s been proposed elsewhere, but I haven’t heard it. I don’t like the idea of building new bunkers or hazards just for the longest players. That seems like an unnecessary cost and unnecessary change to our classic courses. And it’s a fool's errand because as soon as we defend our courses against the 330-yard carry, more players will come along who can carry it 340 yards, and so on.

An obvious reaction is that perhaps we can’t grow rough thick enough to be a serious deterrent to the strongest players. The Winged Foot rough was already 5-inches long, lush, and thick, and Bryson managed it just fine. That might be right. But if the rough was a little less penal for the 280-yard hitter, maybe one of the shorter hitters would have also been under par and made the tournament a little more interesting.

I should emphasize that Bryson is obviously extremely talented, and he deserved to win the U.S. Open. But I’d like to see the extent to which distance is rewarded in high-level competitions come down a bit so that other aspects of the game will be highlighted a bit more. I’m proposing a simple way to do that without altering the equipment, without changing our venues, and without making permanent changes to our courses. What do you think?



Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2020, 08:55:24 PM »
[/size]Bryson’s win at Winged Foot is accelerating the discussions we’ve been having for years on GCA about how—in light of longer, stronger players—we can preserve our classic courses and prevent competitive golf from being too one-dimensional.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2020, 09:07:43 PM »
We want to find a way for the great designs in golf to remain relevant. This forum is full of folks who find tremendous value in golf courses that challenge the whole game, but also reflect the history and traditions of the game. Anthony suggests graduated rough- and this is a better solution than making all tournament courses 8000 yards, or filled with 30 foot deep bunkers, and so on. But this solution, too, is at best a bandage. Great design never used rough increasing in difficulty closer to the green, as this limits the choice of shot rather than encouraging creativity in overcoming the green surrounds and the green itself. Is there a good solution, if we want to keep the old courses in the mix and relevant as more than museum pieces, that doesn't include doing something about the equipment the pros use?
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2020, 10:06:55 PM »
Length is an advantage, always has been - the issue is not penalizing relative length but rather governing absolute length. This is the wrong path.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2020, 10:13:43 PM »
I agree with Jim Sherma, with additional comment that any solution that complicates maintenance( or course set-up) is not a solution at all.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2020, 06:44:39 AM »
There's the opposite to consider as well.
More short grass, much more, much wider, everywhere off the putting surface. Shots that go offline will likely bounce and roll and run further away from the target making the next shot trickier. And lower-strength players can play recovery shots from such situations just as well as strong folks whereas playing from thick rough is much easier for someone who is physically stronger. Encourage skill. Brain over brawn.
atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2020, 07:37:29 AM »
We want to find a way for the great designs in golf to remain relevant.


Relevant to whom ? The great designs you refer to are still very much relevant. What we need to do is stop using the very elite golfers as the barometer but more to the point stop worrying about score relative to par. As Mark Parsinnen said when Castle Stuart held the Scottish Open, lets these guys shoot 25 under for the week, they are after all very very good.


Niall 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2020, 08:07:34 AM »
Most solutions create new problems as many have pointed out.
Very thoughtful post Anthony.

No tee? destroyed tee boxes and a disproportionate nightmare for novice golfers
Less clubs? just give the trophy to a bomber


In the absence of a better idea, I'm with Niall on doing nothing and letting them just shoot what they shoot rather than protecting par and ruining the strategic challenge for everyone else.


I played Shinnecock last week for the first time since they widened fairways post c&Cwide fairways, highly enjoyable, not just for me, but for the rest of my varied ability 4 ball.


Last spring, I played Bethpage, zero fun for the entire group, as the fairways have remained unaltered since the US Opens of 2002 and 2009.


Anually, we see setups and "setup guys" as the story as our various organizations prepare courses to test the best-not the setup guy dujour
I really would like to see the course, in its naked, semi normal form, be the test and the art piece on display.
I for one, as a fan, find golf less entertaining live and on TV when it becomes one more dimemsional, whether it be all driver -wedge or driver hack out, or as eries of 500 plus pars with a ribbon of fairway.




There are always sooooo many "solutions" proposed that ruin the fun and strategic challenge for most players. If you propose a "solution", you are inferring there is a problem.
Therefore address the "problem"(the distance it flies). There is no doubt a way to annually tweak a ball to produce a ball that goes a certain % less for elite players and keeps the course relevant for our elite players, while still rewarding relative length and skill.


[size=78%] For those who find watching a bomber entertaining(most if not all) I do as well. A rolled back ball won't eliminate bombers, it will in fact enhance and seperate their skills. (think John Daly and remember Bryson was 7th in driving length at WF)[/size]


We all like the long ball and seeing an elite driver, but I don't need a shot tracer to tell me it went 376 to be impressed.


It seems so much time, effort, money and resources could be saved vs. what is done at so many courses to keep them "relevant" for elites.


Or....do as Niall proposes.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 08:12:45 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2020, 10:36:18 AM »
I think you could just add more contour in the 300+ areas in both fw and rough.  It could be wobbles to create more uneven lies, or it could be a cross slope that diverted balls into a rough zone not in the prime approach position, etc.  As long as they were mowable by conventional equipment, wouldn't cost anything after building them.


Regarding rough, I have floated the idea of deeper rough on one side of the fw (prime approach zone, much like strategic sand bunkers, but covering more ground, than the other.  As for getting closer to green, in some areas you might have to plant a different grass to get the effect.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2020, 11:40:09 AM »
Length is an advantage, always has been - the issue is not penalizing relative length but rather governing absolute length. This is the wrong path.


Well said. Those two ways of thinking about length are often conflated.


In one sense length will always and inexorably be relative. Whether relative to other players or to golf courses. DeC, Wolff and a few others separated themselves from the field, but the field will eventually close the gap. Ditto for golf courses. WFW at 7500 yds played short relative to their length. The fix is obvious. As fields catch up with DeC et al., make them play 8300+ yd golf courses. Rinse and repeat until we reach a physical limit to how far a human being can hit a golf ball. That is where we are now. An ugly picture, I think.


The other way to see length is in the abstract. Doesn't it make more sense to say that there is a point at which we can reasonably conclude that people hit the ball too far given the length of our best golf courses today? If we claim to care about preserving the best aspects of the game, shouldn't overrunning those courses be stopped? And isn't limiting the ball or reducing COR (or both) the most cost effective way to do that?

So drive a stake in the ground that says the ball will carry here and no farther.


Bob           

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2020, 11:47:02 AM »
If only there was an equivalent to what I saw in some of the higher level softball tournaments I played in my younger days.  They had quite a few good players and things would quickly turn into a HR derby.  So they implemented a 2 Home Run rule per team, which was your 1st two home runs counted, any others after that were an out.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2020, 01:06:10 PM »
If only there was an equivalent to what I saw in some of the higher level softball tournaments I played in my younger days.  They had quite a few good players and things would quickly turn into a HR derby.  So they implemented a 2 Home Run rule per team, which was your 1st two home runs counted, any others after that were an out.


Thus penalizing those who had more home run skill than others.
Again, seems like a "soft"(er) ball would've solved the "problem". and allowed a normal game to have been played, not punch single softball once the HR's were used up.
Although it does add an element of strategy as to when to allow your HR's to be used ;)
Many years ago the "soft" ball became harder and virtually an oversized baseball,coupled with hot bats and HR's became far more commonplace.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2020, 02:04:40 PM »
Jeff, you may be surprised at how many players actually liked the rule..  Why you ask?

Because even thou it meant they were limited in swinging out of their shoes, they too appreciated not being subject to the constant merry-go-rounds and 40-50 run games that went on forever.  And other skills were on full display to gain advantage: like base running with singles being stretched into doubles, doubles into triples, plays at the plate with guys trying to score from second, and even defensively turning double plays or knocking down the hot chili peppers and throwing out the guy at first. 

Kind of how bomb and gouge is a yawn fest to watch on TV instead of seeing a players full repertoire of skills on display to win..

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2020, 02:34:53 PM »
Jeff, you may be surprised at how many players actually liked the rule..  Why you ask?

Because even thou it meant they were limited in swinging out of their shoes, they too appreciated not being subject to the constant merry-go-rounds and 40-50 run games that went on forever.  And other skills were on full display to gain advantage: like base running with singles being stretched into doubles, doubles into triples, plays at the plate with guys trying to score from second, and even defensively turning double plays or knocking down the hot chili peppers and throwing out the guy at first. 

Kind of how bomb and gouge is a yawn fest to watch on TV instead of seeing a players full repertoire of skills on display to win..


While I agree with the outcome, I would've used a different process.(equipment)
Your process is like only allowing 2 drivers per round.


Highlights a skill, but negates one who is exceptional at power.


Changing the equipment allows all skill sets to shine, rather than dictating a certain one mandated by rules requiring a certain style
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2020, 03:31:11 PM »
Jeff,

I agree and that was why I tried to qualify my original statement with if there was a way to do it, which there likely isn't.

But the next best idea other than using a tourney ball is to ban the tee. Why not put a ball in play the same you put it back in play if you have to replace or drop?  Do a drop on the tee box from knee length and off you go.  However this would only be a half measure and eventually these guys would learn to bomb drivers off the deck and we'd be back to square one.  And it certainly wouldn't do anything for the absurd 240 yard 5 irons and 170 yard wedge approaches...but it'd be a start.


P.S.  I'm not against people being able to exploit a particular skill, but I am when it dominates a game to the point of being more important than all other skills.


« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 03:33:54 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2020, 04:18:20 PM »
We want to find a way for the great designs in golf to remain relevant.


...What we need to do is stop using the very elite golfers as the barometer but more to the point stop worrying about score relative to par. As Mark Parsinnen said when Castle Stuart held the Scottish Open, lets these guys shoot 25 under for the week...

Niall
RIGHT! As I said on another place in a slightly different way “Why care what numbers they post - they are the elite performers in the game.” I would personally enjoy watching an elite post a 56 (or lower) in a competitive situation on a reasonably challenging course. Where is that thread after Furyk shot that 58? Does it exist?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2020, 04:24:57 PM »
Golf in its purest form is about playing cross-country.  Finding contrived ways to keep long hitters in check is not the solution Old Tom Morris would endorse.  I suggest he would look at the equipment and shake his head, whether in amazement or in disgust [or both].


I do agree with Jim Sherma and Joe Hancock that the point is not to make strength a non-factor, and that's important because the status quo likes to misrepresent the argument as an attempt to penalize players for their strength and skill.  That's not it at all.  We just want to see them challenged more, and it's become very nearly impossible to do that via golf course design without sending the rest of golfers screaming to the exits.



Kalen, I do question your last point, whether long hitting is the most rewarded skill.  When you look at the shots-gained statistics, success on the approach shots is still king in most events, and those are measured relative to where you were for them [so it negates the long hitter's gain from his tee shot].


Of course, "strokes gained" is relative to the field on the day, and it's possible to argue that Bryson and friends would gain that much more against the field if shorter hitters had not become obsolete on Tour.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2020, 04:35:39 PM »
Courses shouldn't have to adjust their design or maintenance practices to counter the scoring of a tiny percentage of golfers. If people really want to keep scoring in check in professional events, they need to change the equipment rules.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2020, 07:53:58 PM »
Tom,

Stokes Gained is considered to be one of the most relevant stats out there, if not the most.  In a nutshell the data shows that the farther you hit each shot compared to your competitors, in general the better you will do.

It would be interesting is to see which of the 5 SG categories is the most "valuable" to where one finishes on Tour, compared to say the list of winners or the top 30.  perhaps that will be my next xls activity...


For anyone interested, This link has a pretty good explanation of how it all works.  https://www.pgatour.com/news/2016/05/31/strokes-gained-defined.html

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2020, 08:07:21 PM »
Tom


Bear in mind Old Tom was willing to put his featheries to one side and play with a gutta percha ball. He also lived long enough to see the coming of the haskell type ball and I don't recall reading of him adding to the chorus of disapproval. If he was about today I think he'd be amazed about a whole load of things but I'm not sure he'd be upset about how the game is played, in fact I doubt it.


But until Melvyn comes back to speak for the family, we'll never know  ;D .

Niall

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2020, 10:44:11 PM »
I think there are two very different issues:


1.  the relative importance of strength/distance versus other skills required by the game of golf, and
2.  the potential of most of the great courses built prior to 1945 for sure and likely all those built prior to 1990 or so becoming obsolete in terms of hosting major tour events...and the cost/resource/environmental implications associated with courses stretching to 8000-9000 yards


IMHO...#1 above is not a big issue, and I disagree with efforts to solve this issue.  It is like expanding or shrinking the diameter of the cup to reduce or expand the importance of putting.


IMHO #2 is THE BIG ISSUE...as it implies a massive loss of "historical context" which seems to be so very important to most golfers (especially the GCA crowd) and the expense implications including making the game unaffordable to 98% of current players.


I think step one is to define the problem.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2020, 04:06:06 AM »
The problem with governing absolute length is that eventually, nearly everybody will drive the ball virtually the same distance.

I am very much against graduated rough because it smacks of trying to control the penalty for the margin of error.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 04:07:53 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2020, 04:31:04 AM »

The problem with governing absolute length is that eventually, nearly everybody will drive the ball virtually the same distance.

True--but not if you implement restrictions on balls and other equipment.  Back in the 1930's 1950's 1970's and 1990's players did not hit drive the same distance

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2020, 04:40:58 AM »

The problem with governing absolute length is that eventually, nearly everybody will drive the ball virtually the same distance.

True--but not if you implement restrictions on balls and other equipment.  Back in the 1930's 1950's 1970's and 1990's players did not hit drive the same distance

If there is a max distance the ball is allowed (presumably fly), everybody will be capable of achieving this distance probably within 10 years. Whether or not guys chase that max distance is another question. Much would depend on what that distance is and if courses continue to get longer.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Graduated rough that gets thicker as you get closer to the green
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2020, 09:20:27 AM »

If there is a max distance the ball is allowed (presumably fly), everybody will be capable of achieving this distance probably within 10 years. Whether or not guys chase that max distance is another question. Much would depend on what that distance is and if courses continue to get longer.

Sean--There are a variety of ways to reduce ball flight.  Most (restricting number and characteristics of layers. same with simple patterns) would not create a "max distance" but rather would reduce everyone's distance by approx X%.  I am virtually sure the technical folks at the R&A and USGA would know how to do this

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